Oh, look, it’s Tuesday again! That means another new chapter of Rhythm of War, and another new discussion! It’s a good one, whether you were awaiting the next steps from last week’s reading, or eager to read the rest of what Brandon didn’t read for the SDCC reading. We’re excited to discuss it with you out in the open, now, so come on in!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion of fabrials, there’s a very brief reference to the magic system in Mistborn—a spoiler for possibly the first chapter or two, though it doesn’t touch the plot at all. Depending on how you feel about spoilers, you may want to skip that bit if you haven’t read at least The Final Empire.
Reminder: Yes, we know that there are spelling and grammatical issues in some of these chapters (such as “As if I’m wasn’t quite here.” this week). These hadn’t been run by the gamma readers yet, but don’t worry, the book has had a very thorough proof-reading by now. (Speaking of, if you happen to see Peter Ahlstrom or his wife Karen at any future signing events once the pandemic is over, give them a hearty thank you. The amount of work they do on these books is immense and largely unseen.)
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin, Shallan
WHERE: Hearthstone, Shattered Plains
WHEN: Day One, Continued
Kaladin enters the burning citylord residence in Hearthstone, making his way into the prison in the basement to rescue the prisoners trapped there. However, Moash beat him there (of course) and killed them both, then slits Roshone’s throat in front of him. And then… surrenders? Kaladin struggles with what he should do about this, and Moash pushes him to end his own life… but then Renarin arrives and saves the day.
Shallan and her (fellow Lightweavers? Squires?) begin searching Ialai Sadeas’s quarters, and Shallan finds a hidden notebook.
Overall Reactions
There, standing quietly, was a tall man with a hawkish face, brown hair flecked with black. Moash wore a sharp black uniform cut after the Alethi style, and held Brightlord Roshone in front of him with a knife to the man’s neck.
L: GodDAMN but I hate him. Honestly, Aubree really did have me coming around a little to him during the Oathbringer reread, but… ugh. Actions like this? Come on, man.
A: I’ve always been the one to play devil’s advocate and argue in favor of the person everyone else hates, but not for this guy. He was bad before. This chapter? Everything he does, everything he says—it just gets worse and worse.
L: I do want to point out, however, that he’s an EXCELLENTLY written villain. Everyone hates Dolores Umbridge from Harry Potter, and this feels similar to me. There’s just something so satisfying about being able to completely and utterly loathe a villain! (This said, there are Moash lovers out there and I can see their points, too. If this story had been told from his POV, I’m certain that we would see him as the hero of this story. But… it’s not from his POV, which is what makes all of this just so delicious.)
A: As we’ve said before, his motives are generally comprehensible—or at least they were before this. It’s his constant blaming everything on someone else, never actually taking responsibility, that makes me hate him.
L: Also, I need to point this out because someone mentioned it on reddit last week and it amused the heck out of me… Moash had an evil Bridge 4 uniform tailored? Honestly this just tickles me pink. Did he go and find some tailor (probably someone Adolin knew) in Alethkar after the occupation and go, “Okay, so you know those Windrunners in blue? I need one of those uniforms. Yes, exactly like that. But in black, please. I need it to just scream “evil villain,” so you know, if you have any of that Black 2.0 stuff, that would be ideal.”
Roshone thrashed weakly on the ground before a helpless Kaladin. Then the man who had terrorized Kaladin’s family—the man who had consigned Tien to death—simply… faded away in a pool of his own blood.
Kaladin glared up at Moash, who silently returned his knife to its belt sheath. “You came to save him, didn’t you, Kal?” Moash asked. “One of your worst enemies? Instead of finding vengeance and peace, you run to rescue him.”
L: Moash seems to subscribe to the “once an asshole, always an asshole” theory. He doesn’t care if people change, or atone for their sins, as both Elhokar and Roshone were attempting to do. Their actions led to people dying, and so to Moash, they are beyond redemption. As always, this is a fascinating moral quandary. At what point is someone beyond redemption? If Moash himself were to eventually realize that what he has done was wrong, and attempt to atone, would he be beyond redemption? (This is aside from the point of whether or not we as readers actually want to see this or not.)
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Rhythm of War
A: For a long time now, I’ve thought that Sanderson is going to do exactly that—write Moash a redemption arc where he actually cares and wants to atone, and he’ll write it convincingly enough that I’ll accept it and be glad for it. I don’t want that, at all, but… I really do think I could accept it, on one condition: Moash takes full responsibility for all his own actions, acknowledges his personal guilt, doesn’t blame anyone else, and is genuinely repentant.
L: One interesting thing I want to pull out of the above quote… Moash says vengeance and PEACE. This is very different from most heroes in fiction and how they view vengeance. It is rarely viewed as bringing peace—usually if anything, it just results in a sort of apathetic acceptance (with the exception of Inigo Montoya and the six-fingered man in The Princess Bride… and The Count of Monte Cristo… come to think of it, there’s a whole subset of fiction which I’ll just call “revenge-porn” for the moment). Vengeance won’t bring your loved ones back. Usually if the hero does kill the villain, it’s so the villain won’t hurt more people the way they did the hero’s loved ones. But even so, that rarely seems to bring peace per se. It makes me wonder, though… is there a point at which the sins of the villains are so great, that the reader’s moral inhibitions are overcome and they just want to see the villains suffer? I’m thinking specifically of Count of Monte Cristo here, because goodness gracious did I ever cheer each and every time Edmund Dantes took down another villain!
A: Looking at it first from a realism perspective: It would be easy, especially if (like Moash) you’ve been chewing on your grievance for years, to believe that vengeance would be the thing that finally brings peace to your wretched existence. There’s an expectation of closure, if only you can destroy the person you believe responsible for your problems. While I don’t believe it truly works that way for most people, it does translate into the reader experience: you love to hate the person who is causing pain to your favored characters. You want them to be hurt at least as much as they hurt their victims; it feels like it would be justice. Fortunately for all of us, we rarely get the justice coming to us; perhaps we shouldn’t be so eager to see our idea of justice visited on others.
“I surrender.”
L: I can see nothing good coming of this. It’s got to be a trap. Right? Like, he just wants to get close to Kaladin (or Dalinar) in order to try to assassinate someone. Or learn about their plans. Or get into Urithiru…
A: Well, yes.
Moash… had been his friend. They’d spent hours by the fire, talking about their lives. Kaladin had opened his heart to this man, in ways he hadn’t to most of the others. He’d told Moash, like Teft and Rock, of Tien. Of Roshone. Of his fears.
L: Which is, of course, what makes this betrayal even harder. I do love this trope, though. The best friends turned enemies trope (my favorite example being Magneto and Professor X in the X-men) is such a great one.
A: I, on the other hand, kind of hate it. It’s very useful, and a skilled writer can make it extremely effective… but I still hate it. It makes me angry.
L: The deepest betrayals come from the strongest friendships or other relationships. The better you know someone, the easier it is to know how to hurt them. Look at Gavilar, and his expertly aimed barbs at Navani in the prologue!
“What about Jeber and that other man. You killed them for justice?”
“For mercy,” Moash said. “Better a quick death than to leave them to die, forgotten.”
“You could have set them free!”
L: Kaladin’s logic is spot on, here. Moash is just justifying his own murders to himself any way he can, now.
A: This was infuriating. Now Moash blames his murders on the requirements of “mercy”—and with Kaladin, I am not buying it. These were completely meaningless murders. At best, they were the easiest way to silence someone who might have damaged his “dramatic surprise” for Kaladin. At worst, he killed them for the fun of it. I can’t find any justification for this one.
“Everyone you love, everyone you think you can protect. They’re all going to die anyway. There’s nothing you can do about it.”
L: Eventually? Sure. Not like they’re immortal. But this is just needlessly cruel of Moash.
A: Deliberately cruel, I think. He sees it as “needful” for his own purpose.
L: Fair point.
“There is only one answer. One path. One result.”
“No…” Kaladin whispered.
“I’ve found the better way,” Moash said. “I feel no guilt. I’ve given it away, and in so doing became the person I could always have become—if I hadn’t been restrained.”
“You’ve become a monster.”
“I can take away the pain, Kal.”
L: This just reeks of “join the Dark Side, Luke…”
A: If only that were all. He doesn’t even want Kaladin to join him. He wants Kaladin dead.
“The answer is to stop existing, Kal. You’ve always known it, haven’t you?”
Kaladin blinked away tears, and the deepest part of him—the little boy who hated the rain and the darkness—withdrew into his soul and curled up. Because… he did want to stop hurting.
He wanted it so badly.
L: This hurts so badly to read. Honestly… ugh. I’ve been here. I know what Kal’s feeling. I think… a lot of us, who have struggled with depression, know these feelings. And that’s what makes Moash’s words here even more insidious. To have someone echo those words that you’re telling yourself… to voice them, out loud… to try to convince you to take your own life…
This is evil. This is complete and utter evil.
A: His blatant effort to push Kaladin into suicide is completely abhorrent and vile. My only question is whether he really thinks a) death would mean peace for Kaladin, b) he wants to get Kaladin out of the way for some reason, or c) he believes Kaladin’s suicide would so destroy the morale of the Radiants that it would serve his new masters better than simply killing him. Or some combination.
L: I can’t make myself believe that he actually gives a damn about Kal anymore, so A doesn’t ring true for me, personally. I can absolutely see B and C, though.
A: I agree, to be honest. The only reason he’s interested in Kaladin is for his own validation. As he himself says, he needs Kaladin to admit that Moash is right, that everything about life is horrible and the only answer is the absence of feeling, whether through Odium’s “protection” or through death. He has convinced himself that all hope is false hope—except he really hasn’t, because he still needs Kaladin to agree with him.
Moash shied away from the light—but a version of him, transparent and filmy, broke off and stepped toward the light instead. Like an afterimage. In it, Kaladin saw the same Moash—but somehow standing taller, wearing a brilliant blue uniform. This one raised a hand, confident, and although Kaladin couldn’t see them, he knew people gathered behind this Moash. Protected. Safe.
The image of Moash burst alight as a Shardspear formed in his hands.
L: So… is this just an image of what he could be, like what Shallan does when she shows people their potential? This is Renarin doing this, a corrupted Truthwatcher, but… they share the Surge of Illumination with Lightweavers.
A: We’ve remarked before that Renarin can show someone their “perfected” view of themselves, but we also know that he sees potential future events that can be changed by his decisions upon seeing them. So… I don’t know if this is foreshadowing of what will come, or a view of what could have been if Moash had made different decisions. I lean toward the latter, though; there’s enough parallel between Moash and Kaladin that it’s easy to see how either could have made the choices the other did. If that makes sense.
L: While we’re on the subject… There is an outside possibility that the actions he’s taking now may not entirely be of his own volition (look at how the Thrill affected Dalinar!). If he’s being controlled or somehow influenced towards these actions via supernatural means, I’d be willing to give him a bit of leeway. Alice is completely right about the “not accepting responsibility” part, and that’s something that was a part of his personality before he started working with Odium… but if he’s not entirely himself, right now, that would give him a bit of leeway in regards to culpability.
A: There may be a certain “not himself” element to his behavior, but it’s mostly because he found a way to smother his conscience:
“I’ve found the better way,” Moash said. “I feel no guilt. I’ve given it away, and in so doing became the person I could always have become—if I hadn’t been restrained.”
A: As far as he’s concerned, it’s better to be able to do anything he wants with no qualms of conscience. It was his own conscious decision—and (obviously) intentionally, his choice is the exact opposite of Dalinar’s at the end of Oathbringer. Dalinar had asked the Nightwatcher for forgiveness; Cultivation took his memories so he could grow into a better person, then returned them so that better side could face and accept the responsibility for his actions. Moash deliberately seeks to avoid the pain. Not the memories—he’s okay with those. He just doesn’t want the pain of a guilty conscience. So he makes the choice Dalinar refused.
“No!” the real Moash screamed. “No! Take it! Take my pain!”
A: Could this be setting him up for a redemption? An arc where he eventually faces both the responsibility and the painful guilt for everything he knows he’s done? Maybe even an arc where he finally chooses to step away from Odium and toward Honor, becomes a Radiant, and sacrifices himself to protect someone else? Maybe…
L: Honestly, I really wouldn’t be surprised if it were going in this direction, coming from a writing perspective, it makes a lot of sense. I’d trust Sanderson to be able to turn my opinion around… but I still don’t want him to. I like hating Moash. ::laughs::
Humans
“Nothing in here except some empty wine bottles,” Red said, opening drawers and cabinets on the hutch. “Wait! I think I found Gaz’s sense of humor.” He held up something small between two fingers. “Nope. Just a withered old piece of fruit.”
L: As much as I dislike Gaz, this banter between them was pretty cute.
A: Much to the chagrin of many readers, I expect, we now learn that Gaz has moved up from squire to Radiant. Personally, I don’t mind; unlike Moash, I quit hating Gaz a long time ago.
L: I don’t hate him, not like Moash or Amaram or even Sadeas. I just… dislike him. He hasn’t done anything specifically to redeem himself for me, yet. If he eventually has some amazing self-sacrificing moment, or even an emotional one where he confronts Kal and apologizes or something, I’ll come around to him, I expect. But for now I just put up with his presence.
A: True, he hasn’t actually done anything for a redemption, and if it weren’t for his dark humor he wouldn’t be likable at all. Once Shallan promised to cancel all their debts—and fulfilled the promise—so that he could have a fresh start, he was smart enough to take the situation offered to him. Cryptics are an odd bunch, and have criteria for bonding that make no sense from a more Windrunner view; it will be interesting to see if he ever does something good at a cost to himself, or if he’s going to be a level-2 Radiant content with being able to do whatever is convenient to him.
Relationships & Romances
As he moved away from the inferno behind, Syl giggled.
“What?” he asked.
“Your backside’s on fire,” she said.
L: Bless you, Syl.
A: ::snickers::
“And… what happened to your shoes?”
Shallan glanced at her bare feet, which poked out from under her dress. “They were impeding my ability to think.”
“Your…” Adolin ran a hand through his delightfully messy hair, blond speckled with black. “Love, you’re deliciously weird sometimes.”
“The rest of the time, I’m just tastelessly weird.”
A: Obligatory “Awww, they’re so cute.” I just wish there weren’t quite such an edge to Shallan’s self-deprecation.
L: They are pretty cute. I’m just hoping that Sanderson does a better job with their chemistry than he’s done with other similar romances in the past. (Looking at you, Mistborn.)
Bruised & Broken
The balance was working. She was functioning.
But are we getting better? Veil asked. Or merely hovering in place?
I’ll accept not getting worse, Shallan thought.
L: I mean… she does seem a little better than she was at the end of Oathbringer…?
A: She might be? I suspect we need to get farther into her arc than this infiltration mission before we’ll know.
You need to start remembering eventually. The difficult things…
No. Not that. Not yet.
L: Storms. How many more awful secrets does this girl have? It’s like the suffering Olympics, here, with each book revealing more and more awful things that happened to each character in their pasts.
A: Yeah, I thought when she’d finally allowed herself to remember killing her mother, that was the worst of it. Now Veil is implying that there are actually difficult things left to remember? Like that wasn’t difficult enough? Yikes!
He felt himself slipping, losing control. It happened whenever he thought of Moash, of King Elhokar dying, of failing the people of Kholinar and the men of the Wall Guard.
L: Oh, Kaladin. Here’s that PTSD.
Weighty Words / The Knights Radiant
Flamespren ran up the wall alongside him, leaving tracks of black on the wood.
A: This reminds me of what Malata did with her Dustbringer powers back in Oathbringer. Anyone want to bet that flamespren are “cousin” spren to the ashspren whose bonds create Dustbringers?
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
[Gaz] stuck out his head, fully bearded, now with two working eyes—having regrown the missing one after he’d finally learned to draw in Stormlight a few months ago.
L: Well, chalk this down to another disabled character being magically healed (a trope in Stormlight that I am not terribly fond of, due to conversations about this subject with folx in the disabled community).
A: I understand the objection, but I also think it had to happen in order for the magic to be consistent. Unless there’s some solid character reason for Gaz to truly see himself as one-eyed, rather than merely damaged by whatever happened to injure him, it wouldn’t make sense for him to not be healed.
L: Oh yeah, no, it’s entirely consistent with the magic system. That’s not the issue I have.
A: And that’s another long conversation we could have… but probably not this week! I suspect that Gaz may not be an important enough character to make a magic-system-exception worth developing.
L: If anyone was going to be exception, I would have expected it to be The Lopen.
Geography
“Shin ‘wine.’ They have no idea how to ferment a proper alcohol. They make it all out of the same strange little berry.”
L: This amuses the heck out of me, as this is probably the closest Roshar has to the wine we are most familiar with here on Earth. Makes me very curious what the other “wines” taste like!
A: Shinovar: like so many other items, it’s the only place on Roshar to find grapes.
“This building,” she said, “it’s not new. At least part of it was already standing when the Alethi arrived at the warcamps. They built the structure on an already-set foundation. What are the markings? I can barely make them out.”
“Mmm. Ten items in a pattern, repeating,” he said.
L: Very interesting. This would have been a Parshendi building, wouldn’t it?
A: I believe it was there long before the Parshendi arrived. We know from Eshonai’s chapters in Words of Radiance that they had lived in these camps before the war pushed them out onto the Shattered Plains, but these ruins seem older. The markings would reflect back to the Silver Kingdoms which, as far as we know, were human kingdoms; I doubt the Parshendi would have been responsible for them. That said… we don’t know the Silver Kingdoms were all human; we just don’t know much of anything about that part of history.
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
A bronze cage can create a warning fabrial, alerting one to objects or entities nearby.
Heliodors are being used for this currently, and there is some good reasoning for this—but other gemstones should be viable.
L: So Heliodor is the gemstone associated with Ishar, Herald of Bondsmiths. What possible reasoning could Navani be referring to, here? And why would other gemstones be viable for this purpose, but presumably not for others? (I.e., if rubies ALWAYS have to be used for spanreeds, which seems to be the case… why are warning fabrials different?)
A: Hmm. The only time we’ve seen one of these in action, that I recall anyway, was when Rysn set one up during her Interlude in The Way of Kings. In that case, they were using it to sense when people approached; since heliodor is associated with the essence “Sinew” and other things related to flesh and the body, perhaps it’s especially useful to detect people and animals. If that’s the case, it would make sense that you could use amethyst as a metal detector, for example. I wonder if you could use sapphire as a storm warning…
I’d also like to mention the bronze cage used for the warning fabrials. In Allomancy, bronze is used to detect other Allomancy being used nearby (a Seeker); it makes perfect sense to use it in a warning fabrial. One might think that a fabrial could be built to do one step better than Shallan’s fake fabrial pretended to do a few chapters ago: detect Surgebinding being used nearby.
L: Now I want to sit here and look at Allomancy and try to figure out what effects all the other metals would have on Roshar!
We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Also, please remember to refrain from mentioning anything about the sneak peak of Dawnshard.
Alice is happy to say that the gamma read for Rhythm of War is finished—at least as much as the gamma readers can do. The rest is coordination between Dragonsteel and Tor, getting all the fixes incorporated. Now the anticipation for Dawnshard ramps up.
Lyndsey is glad that the gamma is over, but she wishes that this damned pandemic was, too. She misses her job at the Connecticut Renaissance Faire terribly, especially now, when she should have been starting dress rehearsals. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
I squealed out loud at Renarin’s Moment there.
This was an interesting chapter, but also a very short one.
My interpretation of the Moash/Kaladin confrontation was Moash was trying to lure Kaladin into… giving away his pains and thus, perhaps becoming Odium’s Champion? I’ll be honest, I have been bored to tears with Kaladin’s “too good to be true” inner dilemma, hence the prospect of him joining with the enemy, losing himself and potentially dying in a pseudo redemption is extremely appealing. Now, that is a narrative I would love to read: the heroic champion everyone wanted to emulate who falls to Odium and become the enemy to defeat. I LOVE that. For years, I have read theories for Adolin becoming evil because it would create drama within the main characters: this is much, much better and it has a rational. Kaladin no longer wants to feel. Odium takes away pain and guilt. Odium is about passion and, well, so is Kaladin. This would be so fantastic… The enemy being the one no one saw coming… What an amazing plot twist this would be.
The reveals in Ialai’s room were a bit… disappointing? A map of Shinovar. I was hoping for something… crunchier. Still, I noted Shallan admitting “the Three” is a balance to avoid slipping backwards, but she is not progressing either. Veil/Radiant exist because of her fourth truth, I suspect they may no longer exist with the fifth though I do not think Shallan dealt with the four yet. So at least, it explains a few things.
The chapter was too short, so not a lot to discuss. I do not feel the story really started, yet.
Well, Brandon doesn’t spend a lot of time on Gaz (to date), but he was one of the first of the deserters to rush to help the caravans when Shallan recruited them. I think that was his redemption. I get the sense that being the bridge sergeant was a lowly job they gave him when he lost his eye, then he had to run the crews as Sadaes expected, or he’d have to join them. so, he deserted, until Shallan saved him from himself. looks like he’s still struggling (like Teft), and it would be good to see him apologize to the bridge crews before it’s all done…
…but I do think he’s at least started his arc..
I just want Kaladin to be happy! Truly happy, not suckered into whatever dope Moash is selling. He doesn’t need to stay happy. But if Shallan can get her moments in the sun with Adolin. Then why not Kaladin?
I love Renarin even more now. He is certainly growing in power and importance.
I was wrong about where the Moash twist was going, but I still think the Fourth Bridge is in for a bumpy ride back to the Shattered Plains. Someone needs to confront Kal about his depression. Dalinar? Lirin? Rock? Hesina? I don’t care who (besides obviously NOT Moash), just someone see his pain. PLEASE!
It never occurred to me that the silver kingdoms wouldn’t all be humans. I suppose Singers were alive then, but somehow apart from society. Though a room with a map of shinavar seems very human to me.
It’s not fair to take real world issues, project them into a fantasy world where they don’t exist, and then take issue with that. That’s completely unfair to any author constructing their fantasy world.
“A few degrees off, so technically acute.”
I just love Pattern so much.
Shallans last secret?
She killed her grandparents
100%
Is this book gonna deliver anything enjoyable to not-Kaladin and Shallan fans?
@8 – Nope. The book is strictly a Kaladin and Shallan book. No other characters appear.
Great decision to release weekly preview chapters, Team Sanderson.
I absolutely HATE what Moash is doing to Kaladin! As someone who suffers from depression, the worst thing you can do for them is to affirm their feelings.
I see some parallels between what Renarin did to Moash and the way that [Mistborn: TFE] Malatium showed Vin a possible Lord Ruler.
@5/Austin
That’s a fantasy world made up by a human living in this one though, let’s not forget. Brandon’s not transcribing real events he has no control over, he’s in charge of all of this, and I can imagine the magical healing of a disability would sit uncomfortably with reader who has a disability themselves. It has nothing to say about what having a serious condition is actually like, and it’s somewhat insulting if magical powers can just ‘fix’ you if you don’t consider yourself broken.
That said, I think there is a bit of a grey area here: what’s a disability and what’s an unhealed wound? It seems like Gaz lost an eye, rather than being born with one eye, and it doesn’t seem particularly problematic for the victims of accident or violence to seek treatment for an injury – even an old one.
I think Brandon has tried to leave himself a bit of wiggle room here with the notion of identity: if something’s part of your spiritual identity, how you see yourself, then Stormlight’s not healing it. That needs very careful handling though: the implication that someone could be healed but ‘refuses’ to be is much worse!
Wait, am I missing something? the fact that Gaz can heal does NOT mean he is a Radiant right? Squires can suck stormlight (like Lopen when we healed)…
@7
Too simple. Her last secret:
She killed Shallan. She is just some kid the Ghostbloods planted in the family at a young age and she took on the role and lied so deeply to herself she doesn’t remember anything but the mask.
@8 anomander. I agree it is a bit void in “other characters having a narrative”, so far. My thoughts this week is the only way I am going to accept reading so much Kaladin, again, is if he turns evil because that would make it worth the read. Kaladin heroically accepting his pain would be, IMHO, very boring and predictable. We are still early in the book, but my general thoughts are this focuses way too much on Kaladin who has to be the least interesting of all characters. There is just… too much, way too much Kaladin. There is just nothing left to write about him besides repeating the same issues except if he joins with the enemy. That would an amazing twist, but Kaladin’s problems with letting people go? It bores me. This is the equivalent at being asked, at a job interview, what is your work flaw only to answer: “I am too perfectionist”. Kaladin’s flaw is “I care too much!”. Boring. So boring unless it drives him mad and has him turn evil.
Shallan is great though, what she does is interesting though this week’s reveal was mew. I wanted some secrets…
In a general manner, I do share the thought we need to get away from Kaladin/Shallan. Hopefully, there is a lot of them now because there won’t be as many of them later on, but RoW has a shaky start so far. It is not bad, but it is not super captivating either. It has too little characters, well, talking to each other and it needs more perspective than just Kaladin/Shallan.
@14 – Your comment is why I think it is a mistake by Sanderson to do these preview chapters. Books are not meant to be consumed like this. At least, not on the first reading. It leads to too many frustrations and it colors the opinion on the book negatively that might not have existed if people just read the entire book.
Austin. Huh.
This is the first big series for Brandon Sanderson. He has some serious troubles with juggling multiple PoVs due to lack of experience.
Jordan knew when a given character started to become tedious and boring. Brandon doesn’t.
And so we have epic fantasy series written from the perspective of 2 people. Who, after 3 books, have higher word count than some Wheel of Time main characters had for FOURTEEN books.
So fabrials are essentially performing hemalurgy on trapped spren?
I don’t really mind Gaz much. The trouble was that we only ever saw him from Kaladin’s PoV, who had reason to hate his guts. However, Gaz admitted to Shallan that, yes, he was a jerk. Yes, he did semi-actively try to get Kal & co. killed. Yes, he did desert the army. He didn’t try to rationalize or diminish his actions, or lack of them. This admission of fault scores WAAAAAY more points in my book than any trite heroic sacrifice could. Maybe it’s just that we see a GLORIOUS contrast to that idea in the same chapter.
I’m hoping that we get another bait-and-switch fight, like we did with Amaram in OB. We all expected Kal to fight Amaram, kill him, and gain some measure of peace from it (kinda like Moash says…hmmmm…). I never would have called Rock, of all people, shooting him in the back. I hope it’s Renarin this time.
I don’t think the problem is necessarily too much Kaladin, or Shallan, or too little anyone else, as Sanderson writing pretty navel-gazey POV. This is somewhat odd, because if you watch his writing class videos, he seems very aware of the deleterious effect this can have on character perception and plot momentum. And yet we’re told, via the very close third person narration, how Kaladin and Shallan think and feel all the time, over hundreds of pages, despite the fact that their actions and interactions have made that all pretty clear to us by now–or ought to have. If this were to emphasize a change, it would be warranted. But most of the time, it seems to only reinforce what we already know about them. I know these are long books, and come out years apart, but I’d like to see the reader trusted a little more.
I’m oddly fond of Gaz. I listen to the audiobooks and the voice for him is spot on. I got the impression he’s a squire, breathing in Stormlight but not necessarily having said any Truths to get to 2nd+ ideal yet.
@13 That would be amazing.
I disagree with the Moash not taking responsibility part. If we think back to WoR, Moash took responsibility of getting rid of Elhokar. We should also keep in mind that we, along with Kaladin, know about Elhokar trying hard to do good only because Elhokar came to Kaladin and talked to him. Moash only ever saw the bad parts of Elhokar, getting Kaladin arrested when he wanted to duel Amaram. He didn’t have the proximity with either Elhokar or Dalinar or Roshone, for that matter, to know their real motivations and struggles and efforts. He certainly has the desire for vengeance, and that is the primary driving force, I’m not denying that.
Another thing to keep in mind that Kaladin has been trained to save lives since he was a child. His soul’s primary motivation is to protect people. Moash is just a simple farmer, as far as I remember. Combined that with his ignorance of the lighteyes, then his conversations with Kaladin of WoK about how lighteyes are the scum of the earth, his actions certainly seems understandable to me. As for being responsible, he did plan to kill Elhokar even when Kaladin changed his mind, without explaining why.
@13 oh wow, that’s a step further than my idea that a personality she’s not aware of(it’s apparently fairly common in DID for the ‘host’ to not be aware of the presence or actions of other personalities) killed Ialai when Shallan touches her arm to apply the Lightweaving. Maybe that is the hidden personality that did it. Poor Shallan…
@15 Austin, @16 anomander. I agree with BOTH of you! I agree with Austin the format leads to disappointment when the narrative fails to progress forward, but I also agree with anomander: Sanderson does not know when to stop writing a character.
Jordan knew when Rand started stalling and became repetitive, it was time to shive him into the background and to give the lead to his other characters. Sanderson does not seem to know when enough is enough nor when a character should go spend time in the background because their narrative has gotten repetitive.
I am sorry but Kaladin bores me to tears and the only reason I found this chapter interesting is the prospect he might become evil. However, had previous weeks not been so Kaladin heavy, I would have probably really enjoyed it more. Hence my point, too much Kaladin harms the Kaladin story. Less is better, IMHO. Too much just waters the whole thing down and have readers react with “Kaladin, again?” instead of “Fun, Kaladin, it’s been a while”.
@18. Alex. I agree with the “too much navel grazing”.
Was there a romance in Mistborn? I must have missed that.
Okay, the bit about the disabled thing. Gaz views himself as having 2 eyes. The stormlight only allows him to return to what he sees himself as. It’s the same reason the slave brands wont heal, and the tattoo wouldnt take on Kaladin.
It’s not a shot at disabled people. Damn. There could be wheelchaired Radiants if that is their Cognitive impression of themselves.
Is anyone going to mention that in Oathbringer at the first conference of kings that Ialai said out in the open that the first place they should try to conquer was Shinovar? Between that and the Shin wine, I can’t help but think she had some secret reason for all of this.
Roshone murdered Tien. He murdered Moash’s grandparents.
He killed Moash’s grandparents because they had a business he wanted, and he killed Tien because Lirin refused to give him the spheres he wanted. Unless I am forgetting something, he never apologized for murdering Tien or Moash’s grandparents.
Roshone was not changing or atoning for his sins. He was a multiple murderer who happened to be protected by a system of justice which allows powerful lighteyes to kill darkeyes with impunity.
Gaz never struck me as someone who had enough options to really hold onto past gripes about him. When Shallan offered him a chance to be better he took it.
People need to keep in mind that this is the beginning of a brand new book and early chapters of new books always tend to be exposition heavy and remind people of who established characters are and what there history is. This isn’t chapter 45-457 of the Way of Kings. It’s 1-7 of Rhythm of War.
I don’t follow the line of reasoning of magically healing old injuries being problematic. That’s like saying cochlear implants or artificial limbs are problematic.
AAAAGH!!!
I have never felt such blinding debilitating fear in my life as when it seemed like Moash was going to kill Kaladin and he couldn’t even hear Syl. I think I just about died today. Renarin gets a medal for being the most awesome cinnamon roll and preserving my very broken sliver of sanity. A big medal.
I feel kinda stupid now for not remembering that Kal was still alive in that Syl interlude, but again, blinding panic and despair.
What Renarin does with Moash seemed linked to what burning gold does on Scadrial. Which is all I can say because we don’t really know how it works.
@13 Wowsers!
lol @@@@@ multiple. Robert Jordan did NOT know when his characters were getting boring. for reference, please see Perrin and Faile in books 8-11.
@@@@@9 Austin –
that was a perfect response.
@@@@@15 Yes, it does seem people are looking at these few chapters as an indication of the whole book and judging the book for it… In that case, when only liking reading certain characters, a reader would be better off waiting to get the whole book and reading it as they see fit, skipping who they don’t like, etc.
@@@@@18 Alex – You make a good objective point there, and i like your insight in the reference to his writing class. That is surprising (but human) for Sanderson to sometimes do things he teaches not to do. I will note though that since Shallan’s mental state (and the personalities hanging around in there) actually shift and change, we don’t really know how she’s feeling without getting a glimpse inside her head.
@@@@@ Gepeto, respect to your opinion, but I think your bias is affecting you. In my experience, the majority of readers have not gotten nearly enough of Kaladin (I can admit that the Leshwi battles were a bit repetitive, but that does not at all translate to too much Kaladin for me). I think Sanderson is a talented enough writer to know when something is too much, but he has no intention of pleasing everyone. Give me 10 more chapters with Kaladin struggling and eventually overcoming his obstacles! and I’ll be happy. You say “fun Kaladin, its been a while”, but I know a great many who don’t want a while without Kaladin. Keep that in mind when judging Sanderson.
@@@@@anomander, I don’t think a comparison to WoT is right, as that series was designed around a great plethora of characters. SA is focusing on a significantly fewer set of main character POVs by design.
When you have a single protagonist of a book, you cant complain about getting tired of him/her half way through and ask for someone else. If you don’t like the protagonist, you find a different book! It’s the same for multiple protagonists: we’re going to get a lot of their POV, impressions, perspective, etc. If you don’t like one of those characters, than obviously it’ll look like too much and the writer’s fault. But if you love that character, than its a gift to the readers to see more from their perspective.
I’m by no means saying Sanderson doesn’t have flaws, but I think they’re being extremely amplified by bias against a humanly flawed character and the perspective he has.
Maybe it’s because I just reread WoK but the “they all die in the end anyway” thing seems to be a direct opposition to the First Ideal. Maybe Moash isn’t trying to kill Kaladin, maybe he’s trying to kill Syl.
Also, very interesting that Renarin can effectively emulate gold shadows. Also this “light” and “warm” theme seems to be something to do with the Spiritual Realm?
it is painfully obvious that shallan was sexually abused. if you look into trauma based mind contol, it is the way you create altars/personas. besides, what else could it be? think about how creepy her father singing that lullaby is now, cuz every time he did, he molested her.
Agree with @FSS Jordan did not know how to handle his characters as well as you guys are giving him credit and to the ones that are frustrated with the narrative I think is due mostly due to the format. I for my part don’t have problems with the chapters right now though I would like to get to the Venli POW already.
@3 bridge 4. The problem is SA isn’t about *just* Kaladin so while some readers wish it were and can’t get enough of Kaladin, this book was not supposed to be *his* book. I also find all comments stating “we haven’t gotten enough Kaladin” quite disturbing given there is no other character we have read as much as him which is why some readers are starting to be tired of him.
I love multi-POV because the format does not typically allow readers time to get bored with a character and it avoids over-writing them. It is normal, logical to want multi-POV epic fantasy to… switch POV once in a while and not to come back to the same character, every single chapter.
This may be a me-only problem, but somehow I doubt it. I have seen other readers comment on how heavy RoW is with Kaladin content and not all readers would readily take 10 more chapters of Kaladin. As for the fights, well, had Sanderson now over-wrote them, then having Kaladin, those last two weeks, would be less a bother.
Hence my point, there is such thing as giving too much focus on one character to the detriment of, well, everyone else. Less Kaladin makes the Kaladin chapters matter more, more Kaladin makes him repetitive. Also, the idea Sanderson only wants to please the Kaladin fans sits badly with me. I hope this is not the case.
@10
Thank you! I also deal with depression, and anyone suggesting that suicide is a good option really needs help, and should probably never be around people on that ledge. I was trying to not hate Moash, but honestly, having read this chapter I want to strangle the idiot. Him implying here that Kaladin should commit suicide – and the fact that it struck so deeply with Kaladin, was way worse than just killing him could have been.
Honestly, I want to smash in his ‘hawkish face’ rn. Preferably with a shard hammer.
No one says that kind of thing to Kal without about a thousand fangirls attacking them.
@36 Gepeto, agreed regarding the format of a good multi-POV. That said, your comment “I have seen other readers comment on how heavy RoW is with Kaladin content” shows that people are taking the first 8 chapters of an 100+ chapter book as judgement on the book… Yes, the Very Beginning of RoW is heavy on Kaladin, but we’ve **got to keep in mind** this book is coming on the heels of a year-long protracted war, and Kaladin is primarily a soldier, so his POV makes much sense to take us through that and close that chapter before the main book starts.
While since Kaladin remains one of our most primary characters, we’re certainly going to have him throughout the book, I firmly believe his role and POVs will be less in this book than these first chapters make it look like. … If by the end of the book I’m proven wrong, I concede the point to you,.
@38 bridge4. I absolutely agree with you here. I didn’t mean to infer I was judging a book I haven’t read based on the first eight chapters, but so far, wow, I find the book very Kaladin heavy and I am not sure I like it. It could be it is the format, this is very true and if the rest of the book is fantastic with a decent, not over-powering focus on Kaladin, then sure, I’ll be very pleased.
Still, so far, I can say I have lost some of my earlier weeks’ enthusiasm because of this Kaladin heavy plot we are currently reading. I just want it to be done and read about something else, anything else. Shallan is great, I have no issues reading her because her arc is very plot-oriented, but the whole “Kaladin is miserable, woe is me” plot arc just isn’t my personal cup of tea. I can’t get into it. Sorry. The only aspect I enjoyed was the unlikely thought Kaladin might become Odium’s Champion.
@@@@@18Alex Yes. This. Show, don’t tell.
@@@@@FSS And yet Kaladin “arc” in one book is longer than Perrin’s for three-four books. I believe a given character arc needs to be a work of a genious to have 200K words in each book. I’m sorry, but this isn’t about Kaladin.
@@@@@ 32, If Kaladin is the single main protagonist, don’t you think Brandon Sanderson should…tell readers about it instead of insisting on having ensemble cast? I don’t see “ensemble cast”, I see “Kaladin and his side-kicks”. If it was clear form the start that we are reading the series about Kaladin, people would have less questions.
You don’t have enough Kaladin after 7 chapters in this book? Dude…Dalinar fans have zero chapters. Adolin fans and Venli fans have zero chapters. And this is supposed to be Venli’s book.
@39 – I sincerely suggest you, and anyone else not satisfied with the first 8 chapters of a ginormous book, skip these preview chapters. Seriously. I skipped it for OB because I didn’t like reading piecemeal like this and felt it ruined the experience. This time I thought I would try it out and I’m seriously starting to regret that. Not just because of the weekly format of one chapter, but because of the comments, too. It’s just not good for a book to be released like this. I think it might be doing more harm than good.
I am loving these preview chapters.
Okay, now I officially hate Moash. Killing the prisoners, and then trying to talk Kaladin into suicide were both disgusting actions.
I am disappointed that Leshwi isn’t as honorable as she was putting on, because I thought it might be interesting to have a Fused who had a different worldview or goal than Odium’s. But Moash was her project from the start, so that was always too good to be true. I would love to get a POV from a Fused, though, and get into their head about what this war is to them.
Renarin’s light power on display, but I still don’t get how he killed the Thunderclast with it in Oathbringer. It makes sense how it repels Moash here, though. May have to wait til the back half to get answers (recently realized that because Renarin is Bridge Four, getting a Renarin book means also getting more Bridge Four. Looking forward to that!).
Still trying to get used to Shallan’s The Three personality. She’s better than she was in Oathbringer, but, yeah, still messed up.
WRT Shallan, I bet her next truth is that her mom was a terrible person and her dad was the victim in that marriage. I’ve been rereading WoK and WoR.** and in both Shallan leaves the impression that her life would have been great if only her mom hadn’t been killed. That can’t possibly be true, given she had already been broken enough to bond with pattern prior to her mom attempting to kill her. I suspect that her mom was involved with the sky breakers and had been grooming Helaran to believe his dad was contemptible and that mom could do no wrong. Shallan prolly witnessed an extremely abusive marriage.
about moash… yeah, this chapter killed what little sympathy I have for him. All I really have to say though is that while Kaladin might have considered him a friend, moash never seemed to gel with bridge 4 to me. He openly states multiple times that he’s learning the spear not to keep himself alive but to seek vengeance. After bridge 4 is freed by Dalinar moash regularly goes off to do his own thing. Nor does it really seem like he had any friendship with anyone BUT Kaladin.
**Between words of radiance and rhythm of war, we now have WoR and RoW….
@12
you’re 100% correct. Gaza may be a full radiant now but nothing in this chapter confirms it
Hi everybody!
First of all, guys, thanks for sharing your thoughts hear, it’s so fun to read!
I’ve noticed something funny lately. I mean, it’s pretty clear by now that this first part is going to be about what Shallan and Kalladin are up to. I know many readers would have liked it some other way, but we have what we have. So, what use is it to complain each week that you are tired of Kal? I mean, I can totally understand your feelings, but, come on, aren’t you accusing BS of being repetetive?
Thanks for your ideas, anyway!
I had a hard time getting into the first six chapters but 7 and 8 have drawn me in…
The warm light reminded me of Dalinar’s dream of him as a child, it had the same effects on him as this did with Kaladin.
Moash just went as low as someone can go, and I thought killing the insane Jezrien was pretty low. Concerning the read along comments about Moash possibly being under the influence of other powers, that in no way gives him any latitude, he chose and gladly accepted it. That’s like a drunk driver running over a kid on a sidewalk, still responsible for your actions.
@@@@@ several: I don’t understand why characters who turn evil are the only (or the most) interesting ones.
It seems to me that there’s a lot more potential to explore the depths with someone who resists the urge to give in to the evil than someone who, like Moash, simply yields to the baser side of humanity’s burden.
It’s not the worst parts of us that make that make us unique. Our evil tendencies all manifest in the same way: we get angry, we get jealous, we get afraid, we get addicted, we get prideful. We know how those flaws are going to play out for every person.
What’s amazing is to see those who, like Kaladin or Renarin or Shallan or Gaz or Adolin (etc. etc.) resist the allure of the easy slide into stagnation or who, despite having slipped because of their very human frailty, nevertheless struggle to hold on to an Ideal greater than their pain.
@43 This was what I’ve been thinking all along. That the next supressed memory/Truth has to do with her mother, who was a VERY mysterious figure, and how her family had been awful right from the start. That it hadn’t bee Shallan who had ruined her family.
Moash is scum.
And while I agree with the others that the Kaladin chapters are getting repetitive, I’m hoping for sufficient pay-off early on. Hopefully, the 4th Ideal. And gods no, Kaladin turning evil would be the WORST character development. Just THE worst.
oooh, loved seeing Renarin like that.
when Moash says “They’re going to die, you know.” I thought perhaps this comes from his knowledge of the Fused and Odium’s side, and he feels sure the humans are going to lose anyway and is being fatalistic. although that doesn’t fit with the humans being kept around so far instead of all being killed off. but who knows what Odium has twisted him to think.
@33 ah, yes, it does provide a contrast to the first ideal, thanks for that thought.
Wow, poor Kaladin. I was really scared for him for a minute there with Moash. Thank god nothing bad happened, but he still really needs to address his issues. I hope he gets over his ‘must protect everyone’ problem in this book. Hope we get to see more of him! And Kaladin – Syl banter is so cute!
Jordan did not know when to stop writing certain characters. I nearly died by boredom in several Elaine-centered half-books. There isn’t even a place for comparison. You do not like Kaladin, ok. He won’t be so important in this book. Venli will take the spotlight here. You think he wouldn’t notice? That his beta readers, “alpha readers” and tons of people who read it before you wouldn’t notice and tell him? Ehhh… Folks, please. Think before writing down how frustrated and dissatisfied you are.
Initial impressions:
Kaladin can survive in fire without any real damage as long as he has Stormlight, which makes sense. I wonder if this little nugget of info will play a larger role in the story later.
Good bye Roshone. You will not be missed. One despicable character being offed by another, go figure.
Well, I definitely don’t trust Moash (And what’s up with those dark green eyes; are they not blue because of some weird form of corruption? Shouldn’t they be red, then?). You can’t really arrest/hold someone who wields a Shardblade that allows flight.
Shallan “accepted her pain”? Echoes of Dalinar? And I’m glad to read that she realizes she’s still not well. “Functioning” is not the ideal way of living (although sometimes, that’s all that one can do when times are tough).
Gaz with 2 eyes! That addresses some of the speculation.
Pattern has developed a great sense of humor! I even think it may be on purpose some times. And a natural pattern detector.
Also, I know that some feel that Shallan’s crew are now all full Lightweavers, but I still get a “squire” vibe off of Red and Gaz. Neither Shallan nor Pattern mention looking out for her agents’ spren at all while she’s trying to covertly find Ialai’s clue.
And after reading the 2nd Kaladin segment, today’s “F*** Moash” has been rightfully earned. So now he’s an agent of “a better way”, huh? An agent of ruin and oblivion, I guess? Wonder how his defenders will spin his actions now? Also, does he have some other special abilities were learning about here? Some version of “leading” people into believing the worst about themselves or the situation?
Renarin entering as a burst of light! Can his bonding of a corrupted spren provide him with the ability to counter Odium’s attempted influence on others?
Wow, this was a rather informative chapter. Curious to read what our rereaders have broken down for us…
Wow. Moash knows exactly how to tempt depressed people.
If this was a gay romance story, Renarin showing up with a warm soothing light would definitely be a Sign.
I wonder if part of being a Truthwatcher is seeing when other people are lying to themselves. It’s more common for truth to be discomfiting (see Shallan) but it’s nice to see truth being a solace instead.
@40 anomander. This summarizes the sentient. I don’t mind if Adolin or Dalinar have not had chapters and will not have them in part 1, so long as their story quick starts, eventually. It will be a long book and I can be patient.
I, however, mind how, week after week, we have read… Kaladin. Kaladin being miserable. Kaladin having problems. Kaladin sinking. I don’t mind he has this arc, but I mind it wasn’t… spaced out more? This is where the triple fight really becomes redundant… knowing all next chapters would be Kaladin heavy, then yeah, that should have been compressed. Or have other perspectives inserted through it, anything but to have this very long dragging focus on Kaladin being… Kaladin. I love Sanderavalanche but seriously, I wish there not exclusively focused on… Kaladin.
I liked how Sanderson finally reduced Kaladin’s page time in OB because, seriously, he had too much, but so far, it seems as if he regretted doing it since early RoW is super heavy in Kaladin content.
I guess I just want to read about other characters, any character who isn’t Kaladin and that’s a good place to be when reading a book.
@41 Austin. You bring very valid points. It is possible this isn’t an optimum format. It is also possible having many chapters in a row focus on the same character is just not great for this format. Still, even without the format, I don’t think I would appreciate going back to a book where the major focus is Kaladin. We have already been there, I thought we were going to read about the other characters now.
RoW was supposed to be the book focusing on “other characters” but the big three. The “big three” were supposed to less prominent, not more so yes, I did expect the first eight chapters would have us see more perspectives than, well Kaladin every week. And next week, given how this week ended, we are going to read Kaladin, again.
@40 anomander. This summarizes the sentient. I don’t mind if Adolin or Dalinar have not had chapters and will not have them in part 1, so long as their story quick starts, eventually. It will be a long book and I can be patient.
I, however, mind how, week after week, we have read… Kaladin. Kaladin being miserable. Kaladin having problems. Kaladin sinking. I don’t mind he has this arc, but I mind it wasn’t… spaced out more? This is where the triple fight really becomes redundant… knowing all next chapters would be Kaladin heavy, then yeah, that should have been compressed. Or have other perspectives inserted through it, anything but to have this very long dragging focus on Kaladin being… Kaladin. I love Sanderavalanche but seriously, I wish there not exclusively focused on… Kaladin.
I liked how Sanderson finally reduced Kaladin’s page time in OB because, seriously, he had too much, but so far, it seems as if he regretted doing it since early RoW is super heavy in Kaladin content.
I guess I just want to read about other characters, any character who isn’t Kaladin and that’s a good place to be when reading a book.
@41 Austin. You bring very valid points. It is possible this isn’t an optimum format. It is also possible having many chapters in a row focus on the same character is just not great for this format. Still, even without the format, I don’t think I would appreciate going back to a book where the major focus is Kaladin. We have already been there, I thought we were going to read about the other characters now.
RoW was supposed to be the book focusing on “other characters” but the big three. The “big three” were supposed to less prominent, not more so yes, I did expect the first eight chapters would have us see more perspectives than, well Kaladin every week. And next week, given how this week ended, we are going to read Kaladin, again.
I think Oathbringer made it pretty clear, with his little extra flashbacks, that Kaladin is the foremost main character of at least the first 5 books.
Hey, I’m in early enough to respond individually to a few!!
Shashank @@@@@20 – Moash was the grandson of second-nahn silversmiths, raised by them in Kholinar, who chose to get work as a caravan guard because it was more exciting than learning his grandparents’ trade. He was hardly “ignorant of lighteyes” nor was he a simple farmer.
@@@@@several re: magical healing. I (obviously) agree with those of you who are making the distinction between disabled-due-to-injury and disabled-due-to-congenital-effects. That’s why I said it would be inconsistent to have Gaz NOT heal, because he thinks of his missing eye as an injury to him, not a part of his identity. For a counter-example in the book, Renarin’s bond healed his epileptic seizures and his eyes, but not his autism. I suspect it’s intended to be a very personal thing.
(Also, let me pass on to you a recommendation I got from Brandon on this subject: read a book called The Speed of Dark by Elizabeth Moon. FANTASTIC read, and it’s about this issue exactly.)
FFS @@@@@31 – Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud… :D (Also, good to see you again!)
middle @@@@@34 – I doubt it. Sanderson (unlike many people, apparently) understands that there are a lot of different traumas people can undergo – yes, even girls – that have nothing to do with being raped. Just sayin’…
@@@@@many – As has been said several times, these opening chapters combine an “avalanche” for the missing year, a refresher for those who don’t obsessively reread the entire series before a new book comes out, and an introduction to new arcs that will carry through the book. And logically, the book as a whole is setting up the finale of the first SA set. Don’t be so sure you know where the book is going, because I guarantee you there are things you do NOT expect at this point.
Chicken Scout’s Honor: you will be surprised.
Seriously, if you’re that frustrated by remembering Kaladin’s lifelong depression and current PTSD, maybe you really should just wait for November. You can skim those parts until things go places you think are more interesting, instead of obsessing over the things you don’t like.
Laura @@@@@43 – I like your perspective. While Shallan’s father did turn into a very abusive man, I don’t believe he was always like that – and like you, I suspect that her mother was… far from ideal, shall we say?
Oh, yeah – @@@@@ several – you’re right, this chapter doesn’t actually confirm Gaz as a Radiant, just a full-on squire. My bad.
LittleCremling @@@@@45 – Thanks! I literally laughed out loud. :D
I see a heavy Kaladin focus for now because of the need to bring us up to speed with the one year jump and some of the biggest changes has been on the increase in the number of Windrunners and how they are the active front line soldiers in the war against the fused. Should he have maybe used various bridge four POVs to convey the different types, show how certain fused are being influential, introduce the new fabrial and the show the Moash is going to be trouble? I don’t know, I’m not a writer. I am guessing the reason we saw so much of Kaladin being depressed was to give some believably to Kaladin being tempted by the Moash suicide speech, because up until then, I felt like too much time was being spent on it. I agree that some of the fights were repetitive to the point I no longer enjoyed them. Given the number of beta readers he uses, I am going to trust that there is a purpose in this, and we wouldn’t be noticing this as much if we had the entire book in our hands.
Wow. Official confirmation that kaladin is the foremost main character of the series.
RIP hopes for Dalinar.
And I think the statement should be made a long time ago. Like, 10 years ago.
Can we get just a little more recognition on the awesomeness of Renarin’s moment? The kid told constantly “to get out of the way”. The kid told constantly that “you are weird, whats wrong with you?”. The kid that even when he gets powers, still ends up feeling alienated and that he is bad, ends up bringing out the best in people? Comes to save the day for Kaladin?
The kid that felt like no one wanted him is finding the confidence to be a hero. And not even a beat him up kind of a hero. But a thoughtful one. I for one cannot wait to see more of what Renarin can do!
What in these chapters is giving anyone the impression that Kaladin might “turn evil”? Is it the fact that his character arc is incomplete, and people are under the impression that changing sides is the only way characters can grow and develop?
Kaladin has two oaths left to swear, and two critical problems with his protective ethos. One, the obvious bit, as everyone and their mother has said already, Kaladin needs to let go of his Al’Thor list and accept that he can’t protect everybody all the time. Second, for those who have been paying attention: Kaladin needs to accept that he’s protecting *people* and treat them like the adults they are – that is, independent decision makers in their own right, whose choices he should respect. This is most obvious when he deals with deaths among Bridge 4 or his squires and students more generally: as it stands, Kaladin is unwilling to acknowledge that the people he’s training are willing and able to put themselves in harm’s way to protect others, just like he himself is, and that their choice to do so is something he must accept and respect. These two ideas (if they are actually two separate ideas and not just different sides of the same next-oath coin) are where Kaladin’s character is going. This is where his principle growth will be. Obviously he will also need to learn to deal with his depression, but that’s not going to just go away.
As far as when this growth will happen, it depends principally on Sanderson’s plan for Part II. If Kaladin is projected to sit back a bit from the front lines of the story in Part II, serving a leadership role closer to Dalinar’s, then I expect RoW and Stormlight 5 to be heavy on Kaladin in order to bring him to full Avatar of Protection five-oath Windrunner, which would put his next oath somewhere in RoW, probably relatively late for the sake of climax. If he’s not going to finish his principle “protector” character arc in Part I, then I still expect his next oath to be towards the end of RoW, since Stormlight 5 is very likely for structural reasons to end on a low point much like OB did. All of this is to say: it’s not terribly surprising that Kaladin is going to be featured relatively more in this book, at least in the sections he’s present for, because this book needs to push him to that next oath.
Finally, the idea that Kaladin would flip sides is absolute nonsense given the existence of Moash as a character. Seriously folks, Moash is the anti-Kaladin. What could the story possibly gain by having Kaladin, the *main character*, change sides and become a subordinate of his own foil?
Now that Kaladin isn’t fighting stupid superhero duels he becomes interesting again. He criticized the lighteyes on the Shattered Plains for their games hunting for gems and treating war as a contest, but the duels beween the Windrunners and Fused are the same thing. Moash showed that it is possible to do more harm by talking than fighting.
Kaladin’s story is constantly interrupted by Shallan’s. Having even more storylines at the same time would just fragment the story too much. When Brandon started writing fantasy he tried to have too many characters at once (because WoT has so many). He learned from that to focus on a few at a time.
So, Moash has become a nihilist. Which in a way makes his quest to murder Elkohar and Roshone contradictory; if none of it matters, if life is just suffering, etc, then why do these people deserve retribution? (I actually didn’t consider on the first read that he as just flat out manipulating him; I figured he too was just stuck in that nihilist worldview, that life is just suffering and meaningless and so there’s no point to morality, hope, mercy, etc.)
I think revenge can sometimes be about what feels like punishment/fairness – even if you’re not a sadist and don’t want to torture the person, just the fact that they are out there breathing the free air can feel like a real affront. So it’s not necessarily just about protecting other, but balancing the scales. If this is actually true/just and to what extent, and to what extent atonement and redemption can have a factor, this will deffer. Redemption and choosing to break the cycle or stop following the evil doesn’t undo damage, and so what does accountability look like. For example, if Kylo Ren or Darth Vader had actually lived – what would then be the next course of action? And related, what is the purpose of the death penalty and when should it be applied? Fairness (life for a life, etc)? Retribution? Deterrent to others? Affirming the victim? Protection of others?
I love Renarin’s power!
I actually cringed when Shallan offered Adolin the wine because I’m still not convinced it wasn’t poisoned!
Dalinar said, “You cannot have my pain”. Moash said, “Take my pain.” One is willing to own his mistakes and become a better person, the other wants absolution without repentance.
Another nice summary and bit of analysis by our fearless rereaders!
Re: Moash wanting to “surrender” – Yeah, I agree with Lyndsey that he likely wanted to get close to Dalinar or Urithuru. That’s assuming he wasn’t trying to just get to Kaladin to use his mojo on him.
Lyndsey also makes solid points about the deepest betrayals coming from those we have the strongest relationships with. Another reason why F*** Moash is so prevalent and #noredemption will continue to be spread throughout the fandom.
Honestly, just everything Alice and Lyndsey say about Moash in “Overall Reactions” is spot on.
Re: Renarin – Once again, an example of his ability to show people potentially the best version of themselves. I think it connects with his “futuresight” and works like Allomancy gold, just like a commenter and I discussed a few rereads ago.
Re: Gaz moving from squire to Radiant – I grant that Alice and Lyndsey know what’s to come, so maybe they feel it is more clear here, but I would argue the opposite. Shallan mentions only looking out for Gaz and Red while trying to figure out Ialai’s puzzle; she never mentions looking out for their spren, Pattern never mentions anything about other Cryptic spren. It makes sense for Kaladin to not mention other honorspren while he and Syl are flying around in the air (as the sky is a huge place and they’re actively engaged with the enemy) but I would expect in a small enclosed set of rooms that there would be some acknowledgement of other Cryptics, especially when Shallan feels like she doesn’t know who to trust.
Re: Fabrial tech – I like the points about adapting other gems to detect metals, storms, etc. I hope to see Navani and her ardents take us far in the development of fabrial usage.
@many of you, for some reason
How many of you that are commenting on possible insensitivity or distinction in identity to or about disabled people actually have a disability?
That was the last thing on my mind until so many of you went on about it so long. Good grief, it is a BOOK. Our lives are not literally impacted by it and I do NOT feel diminished by Brandon’s magical healing system because I’m left out, or whatever you people think disabled people might feel, even considering that eye healing is exactly what I need.
Get a grip, and be happy for Gaz.
Just as a reminder regarding Moash, and a little bit of insight into his twisted rationale, his explanation for why he kills the prisoners makes complete sense from his perspective seeing as his grandparents were sentenced to prison and died in there forgotten.
I re-read the part where Renarin comes to help/save Kaladin several times. Do we really know that Renarin caused the bright light and Moash “good alternative” vision that Moash was so upset by? After the warm light faded, then Renarin ran in, almost like he was disconnected or not aware, and was still surprised at finding Kaladin? Did Renarin cause that light and warmth for Kaladin? Or maybe Renarin didn’t do it intentionally, and even with his corrupted Spren, he can open a portal to the Spiritual Realm, which is the warmth Kaladin felt.
Also, Moash spreading an Odium lie, revenge doesn’t bring peace, just more emptiness/hollowness. I imagine Moash was given this assignment (to encourage suicide/surrender/murder of Kaladin) specifically by Odium.
Can’t wait for book release!
These words are accepted.
That’s because he’s on the side of the evil god who eats emotion. Pesky emotions like guilt, self-loathing, regret, all of those things that can lead someone to self-reflection and improvement as a person. Moash is allowing Odium to devour those emotions, which IS a kind of peace–the peace of the void. He only feels what Odium will allow him to feel. And without that pain, he’s got no impetus to change. He could at any point choose to stop doing that, but he’d have to live with himself. Amaram couldn’t. Dalinar couldn’t without shardic help. And somehow I don’t think that Moash would ever want forgiveness if he went for the old magic.
This right here? This isn’t him moving towards Honor. This is him serving Odium. “Give me your pain, Dalinar. It was my fault, not yours.” Moash is starting on the path Dalinar rejected at the end of Oathbringer. You can’t have a journey of redemption if you can’t even take the first step.
Oh and fun thing: what Renarin’s doing is similar to electrum allomancy. He’s showing Moash one possible future. The fact that Moash rejects it in favor of asking Odium to take his pain has me confident that we’re not getting a redemption arc.
Speaking of Renarin: haha, Kaladin seeing a god there. I’ve been guessing that none of the main four were going to end up as big time Powers in the cosmere by the end, and Renarin’s been my choice of who’d end up with a Shard by the end for a while.
@lyndsey and alice
It feels like the little things get spoiled by having beta readers lead the discussion, even though you don’t mean to. Like on the Seventeenth Shard there’s a whole debate about whether Moash was literally trying to get Kal to commit suicide, or metaphoric suicide by giving his emotions to odium and here you guys just refer to it as “Moash pushes him to end his own life” . Same with last chapter, where people were debating whether it was murder or suicide, and you referred to it as murder. I can’t help but assume you know how it’s really going to go down, and it takes some of the fun out of it. Am I reading too much into how you phrase things?
I feel like something’s being missed here in the discussion of Moash and his use of words/phrases like “peace” (in reference to vengeance) and “take away my pain”. This is exactly the kind of language that Odium uses with Dalinar towards the end of Oathbringer, and indicates something about his (Odium’s) overall program. Moash is expressing/living out his acceptance of Odium’s lies – that he can eliminate the pain of guilt, not by accepting responsibility and resolving to do better, but by “accepting” that he is a victim. “Pain”, in his sense AND in Dalinar’s at the end of Oathbringer is the pain of knowing that you have done horrible things, that YOU are the one who has harmed others. It is the knowledge that you, and nobody else, are responsible for another’s suffering. Pain is knowing you ARE Roshone, and that you if you hate those who inflict suffering you MUST hate yourself. In some ways this means Moash isn’t the foil to Kaladin but to Dalinar: “You cannot have my pain!”
It also explains why Moash wants to “convert” Kaladin and why Moash desperately wouldn’t want to kill Kaladin. For Moash, Kaladin is who he refuses to be, who he doesn’t believe he could be. Kaladin dying by someone else’s hand would mean an end to Moash’s belief that nobody can REALLY accept responsibility and be whole. Kaladin offing himself as an escape from his pain would be the ultimate gratification to Moash. I agree, kind of, with Lyndsey’- “Join the Dark Side, Luke” but it’s really not that at all. It’s not “become evil like me, Kaladin”, it’s “believe how I believe, so that you stop shoving what I think I could/should be in my face”.
As a person with a disability I can say it is just that – the lack of a specific ability. If I suddenly gain the ability back – great! Yes, I do LACK the ability to do some things. If I see that as a positive that is okay. If someone sees it as a negative that is okay. If I get stuck on controlling how others view me or what they can say it is my problem. Trying to control the thoughts and words of others is just silliness and just another kind of selfish vanity. I have no sympathy for those trying to tell others how to view them to avoid hurting their feelings. Foolishness!
Regarding the complaints about character screen time, I resent the implication that Jordan did better screen time management than Sanderson does, or vice versa. And, that is as a rabid fan of both.
I didn’t appreciate some of the “slower” parts of WoT, which really is just time spent on characters that weren’t my favorite, or possibly not seeing things blown up as often, until I had been through the entire series more than once. On subsequent reads, the development makes much more sense. I’ve experienced the same thing with Stormlight at times, and I’m putting full trust in the whole picture making sense over being picky about individual chapters.
And, as we hear over and over, this is just chapter X (8, this week).
I’ll like to point out that this chapter really shows Moash’s special relationship with Kaladin. As far as I know, ONLY Moash and Shallan have truly understood Kaladin’s depression. He’s what Kaladin would be if Kaladin chose to hold the anger, and is the perfect foil. Honestly, to me – he and Kaladin have the most interesting relationship now.
i apologize in advance for my comments, since it has probably already been discussed. i havent read others comments yet but i just finished the chapter and wanted to spit out a few words.
first off, Storming Moash. I hate the influence and power he still has over Kaladin. And he escaped in the end? What’s up with that?
Also, how many others has Renarin influenced with his “potential image” power? He showed Moash what he could be, and I think he also did that to Adolin when Renarin healed Adolin’s wrist after Adolin killed Sadeas. I’m sure there are others, but i cannot remember.
I also liked the contrast of pain in this chapter. Moash was playing the victim, wanting to have his pain removed and taken from him, trying to offer Kaladin the same “reprieve”. But let’s think back to book 3 with Dalinar and Odium. Odium tried the same tactic, to “take away” Dalinar’s pain and turn him into his Champion. But, stalwart as ever, Dalinar refused and said that Odium cannot take his pain and that Dalinar’s pain is Dalinar’s alone. Shows the responsibility, power and character behind that. Anyway, fun read, and I’m actually enjoying Shallan’s chapters/screen time lately. More to come
Regarding gemstones, most of them are oxides of aluminum with metal impurities replacing some of the aluminum atoms in the crystal. For example, the red of rubies is largely a result of chromium impurities.
So there maybe a connection between allomancy and surgebinding that we will get to see in the later books.
Of course, its a touch tricky as multiple metal impurities can be there in an unconventional gemstone but I figure Sanderson has already thought of how to take care of that if he decides to explore this avenue further.
Regarding gemstones, most of them are oxides of aluminum with metal impurities replacing some of the aluminum atoms in the crystal. For example, the red of rubies is largely a result of chromium impurities.
So there maybe a connection between allomancy and surgebinding that we will get to see in the later books.
Of course, its a touch tricky as multiple metal impurities can be there in an unconventional gemstone but I figure Sanderson has already thought of how to take care of that if he decides to explore this avenue further.
It’s interesting to see Renarin becoming the person that Wit expected him to be. I wonder if he can eventually be the catalyst for healing for both Kaladin and Shallan.
Now that Roshone is dead, Laral is suddenly unmarried. Perhaps she has a part to play in Kaladin’s healing. And hopefully, Kaladin’s parents will be able to see the pain that their son is living with and be able to help. It looks like that both Kaladin and Shallan have a support network that can help each of them, but they need to admit to that need.
@77
Just had a flashback to Oathbringer because of your comments on Laral. Something about Syl, sitting on the headboard offering suggestions and cheering him on.
Not to be completely crude, but a little time with Laral might be just what Kal needs.
@77- I hope laral doesn’t have anything to do with Kaladin’s healing. Through all the flashbacks of wok, It strikes me that she was completely aware that her dad wanted her to marry Kaladin and pushed him hard to solider up and win a shard blade because she couldn’t stomach the idea of wedding a dark eyes. Then in OB, she compares Roshone sending Tien off to die as equivalent to lirin badmouthing roshone. Nope. Not even close. Given how much Kaladin hung out with her and how much tien followed him around, she ought to have known Tien as well. But no. She doesn’t even give Kaladin a sad look and say ‘sorry your brother died all those years ago’ much less admit that Sending that little boy to war was shitty and that it was done solely to punish lirin rather than augment to military.
@Gepeto I don’t think Sanderson is going to make Kaladin evil. If I remember right, he let a fan know that it would be ok to name their newborn son Kaladin and that they would not regret it from what happens in the books to come.
Also the comment above that Moash is his foil and evil side already makes the most sense to me. Kaladin will be the honor champion and Moash Odium’s.
This chapter was so dark and deep, but I loved it. One of my favorite things about Sanderson’s writing is getting into the heads of people who aren’t like me–something that apparently a lot of the naysayers here don’t care to do. I would be happy with 100 more chapters of Kaladin, cause even though I’ve never had depression, I FEEL like I’m starting to understand what it must be like through him. Thank you for that, Brandon. These books are amazing. You really took a risk going here in this scene, but I think you did it with phenomenal care and the upswing from this–whether it happens in 1 chapter or 100–is going to be incredible.
Wowie! What a chapter.
I have to say my favorite part of this forum is people noticing the little things or tieing it back to earlier tidbits.
I am really liking Moash!…. What???
I’m really tired of the opinions of who should and shouldn’t have POWs. Go be a writer then and stop reading BSs fabulous books. I mean, come on. He spends a year or more writing, checking, alpha testing, beta testing, then spoon feeding us chapters to wet our hungry appetite and all we get is comment after comment about who and too much and keeping score? Can we just keep the discussion to conclusions, insight and guesses?
On another note, since I’m in attack mode, I’m getting really tired of all the Labels. Don’t know why there are so many shrinks in the house. Can a character not have inner conflict without being depressed? Kal is troubled by all the people he couldn’t help, sounds like a big heart or an unwillingness to accept defeat, and possibly thinking he could have done something more to prevent it. Why does this need a label of depression or any label at all? I never even thought the thought that he was depressed, and yes, I know what depression is. Then there’s Shallan who happens to talk to herself and give different aspects of her advice for herself a personality. It’s just another way of presenting inner conflict. The fact is she has not come to terms with herself and something she did in the past. It is clear she will have to deal with it and we’ve seen twice now where it’s ready to come to the surface but she’s in the middle of conflict and chooses to keep from looking. It will come and bring her closer to being whole.
Moash, had to leave some suspense there… He has found a solution that let’s him live with himself. And this hits Kal so hard and resonates so well that Syl was ignored. Moash is so confident, so certain that he’s right, and so contrary to the ideals. Kal will not turn, but he needs a solution to the pain he feels, and presenting Moash as the embodiment of No Pain will help Kal, I think, as he knows what road not to cross as he’s disgusted at what he’s become but still wants to save his Bridge Brother.
I got one an enjoying the book, all viewpoints, and can never have enough Kal or anyone else. It’s 10 books… Or more. I’m sure BS will start and stop all story lines by the time he finishes the whole story. I’m just going to sit back and enjoy, as always. Thanks Brandon, you make all our lives more enjoyable with your weavings.
WOW! This was phenomenal! KALADIN I LOVE YOU, YOU GOT THIS! I hate Moash so much right now. He can go burn after what he just did. It’s going to be so satisfying when Kal overcomes his uncertainty and, at some future day, when Moash tries to get him to fall again, Kaladin just rolls his eyes and spears him through. Bring it on.
@77. Almazar80
I expect that the part that she’ll have to play in Kaladin’s “healing” is recognizing that their shared past means they share experiences and could be good friends again someday. But any relationship would be poison. She’s just been widowed and ripped away from the only home she’s ever known; her extremely practical current self would see 4th nahn Kaladin as a good way to ensure that Hearthstone’s people are taken care of. Meanwhile Kaladin’s never quite come to terms with his feelings about Laral marrying Roshone.
Any relationship (friends, lovers, enemies) they have is going to have to account for all that and more, which by all proper forms of storytelling should mean they come to an understanding that they’re too different for it to work now.
Besides, Kaladin already has a partner who’s been with him from the start, who’s seen him at his worst and still wants to understand him better, someone who wants what’s best for him no matter what it costs her. If Kaladin’s going to have a romance with anyone, it’s going to be Syl.
@79. Laura
For what it’s worth she DOES say she’s sorry about Tien, but for her it happened a long time ago and a long way away, and things had changed since then. She’s embodying “life before death” in that scene; it’s Kaladin who’s stuck on the dead, and Laral who’s doing what she can to help everyone in town in the here and now. Roshone was walking the same path that Dalinar did, and getting a lot less support before his throat was slit.
82. BS fanK
I don’t know what you’ve been reading but Kaladin explicitly has chemical depression and PTSD. Shallan really does have some form of social anxiety and dissociative identity disorder. Renarin is explicitly on the autism spectrum. Dalinar really did become an alcoholic to deal with his own trauma. People keep bringing up the real conditions these characters have because Brandon Sanderson is making sure that their issues are as accurate to the conditions they live with.
Stepping back, I think there’s a HUGE issue with Roshone’s death: it’s focused too much on how Kaladin feels about it, when Roshone is the man directly responsible for killing Moash’s grandparents. He should remind Kaladin that BOTH of them need a pound of flesh from Roshone, and offered Kaladin the chance for vengeance before doing it himself for the both of them.
Honestly this is super bugging me. :/ It’s so much of a weaker scene for not having that come up.
@55 Peter. Everyone understands Kaladin is an important character, but he was supposed to one of many characters, not the major character of the first arc. I personally enjoy multi-POV precisely because it isn’t about the one character, but about an ensemble cast. All characters have their turn to shine. Kaladin is the character who spent the most time in the spotlight hence it is natural some readers were expecting to read less of him in book 4/5, not more. I don’t think anyone expected him to vanish, but I certainly expected RoW to focus more on Venli/Navani than on Kaladin. I expected Kaladin’s role to be on-part with OB or slightly less because, well, he had his time to shine, he is fully fleshed-out, he no longer needs prolonged focus. Granted, that may still be true, but I didn’t get the feeling the Kaladin arc was about to wrap up soon… I got the feeling there will be many more Kaladin weeks until the release. I could be wrong, but this is how I am reading it currently.
I truly did believe RoW would have an ensemble cast and no character would drive the spotlight as much. Granted, it is only eight chapters, but I think the readers expressing given tiredness over reading Kaladin are not in the wrong. The readers who expected a more even balancing in the viewpoints also were not in the wrong as Brandon Sanderson never said Kaladin was the most central character of the first arc. At least, if he said it, I missed it.
I personally took the extra flashbacks not as promising more Kaladin the in the future, but perhaps promising other characters could get theirs, even if not on the plan. Or perhaps we would get more from Shallan. Maybe some additional Dalinar. Maybe other characters. I certainly did not take it as implying the next two books would be Kaladin heavy: if this was the message the author tried to send with those, then it was missed on me.
@56: Alice. It is possible Kaladin’s plunge towards his inner darkness is not everyone’s cup of tea, but I do not feel those of us feeling there has been a lot of focus on him are in the wrong. There has been, both in this book so far, and in previous books, a lot of focus on Kaladin’s character development. The fact some of us feeling that perhaps we did not need as much to get to the same end result should be allowed to say so.
As I said above, I believe the current feeling some of us have is the combination of the three similar-sounding fights in a row followed by two other Kaladin chapters which is causing the effect. Had the fights been condensed to, well one, had the chapters been more spaced out, had other characters broken down the sequence, I think the reaction would have been different. All in all more is not always better. I do think by putting so much focus on Kaladin chapters planned to be released as a serial, Sanderson has more or less caused some of us to feel the way we do.
I don’t think it is fair to tell us not to read the rest of the serialization… I personally rather enjoy the Shallan narrative and I am keen on reading the narrative once it finally switches, which will certainly happen, eventually, but finding the author has been heavy with the Kaladin sequences, in those early chapters, is a comment I believe is valid to have and to voice out.
@80: Aniera. In light of Alice and Peter’s comments, he certainly will not, but I would have enjoyed this plot twist. Kaladin spending time as an antagonist only to come back in one sacrificial move would have been an arc I would have liked to read.
Granted, I think this is out of the loop since Kaladin is confirmed as the more foremost of all characters.
Yeah, I want to chime in with those who are pointing out Jordan actually did overdo characters. I’m sorry, but WoT could have been at least 3 or 4 books shorter. I remember something about Brandon S. learning from finishing WoT about how to not let minor characters distract too much from the main plot, something that was a failing of Jordan’s. Which, IIRC, is where he got the idea for the Interludes, where he could present minor characters without them taking over the book. WoT really bogged down for me in about the 4th or 5th book, and didn’t pick up again until 8 or 9. The stuff in between was just a slog for me to get through. And I’ve only read Jordan’s WoT. Every time I’ve tried to read something else? I just can’t get in to it. Nothing happens for like 100+ pages. I’ve never read a Sanderson work and thought it slogged too much (well, maybe WoK Prime, but that’s kind of an “unfinished” story.) In fact, it always amazes me how his 1000+ page behemoths don’t read like they are such monstrosities.
As for having issues with magical healing and whatnot: that’s kind of what fantasy is for! Letting us get out of the real world and think of something better. Jerry Pournelle once wrote a short story titled “Call Me Joe” about a guy consigned to a wheel chair who was mentally controlling some artificial constructs on the surface of Jupiter(?). Yeah, some horrible movie with blue people stole the idea many years later. Anyway, at the end, after the guy transferred his consciousness permanently, one guy says, “this is a disaster!” Another points out, no, this is a recruiting tool! Imagine anybody who is a quadriplegic or paraplegic. Give them an opportunity to have a fully functioning body and how many of them wouldn’t jump at the chance?
Thats what SF does; looks to the future and says, “how can we fix these problems?” In Fantasy, it’s magic systems. As has been metioned, Renarin’s eyes and epilepsy being healed, Gaz regrowing his eye, Lopin regrowing an arm. This is the kind of thing such people in real life dream about. Fiction gives us an escape to hope for that.
And yes, even those with mental illness have hope for a miracle cure. That’s just human nature.
And Kaladin? He has some issues that need to be addressed before book 5. If not now, then when?
One other thing I wanted to mention: as for this being “Venli’s book.”
IIRC, Sanderson has stated that when he says “this is so-and-so’s book,” what he means is that we’ll get their flashbacks. It does not mean that they will be the central character(s) for the book. We’re supposed to get Venli/Eshonai flashbacks, but Eshonai is dead. She won’t be appearing “real-time” in RoW. We can get those flashbacks, but still have most of the book focus on Kaladin, Shallan, and the usual suspects.
If I’m wrong on that, I apologize, but that is what I remember reading. Just don’t have a specific reference to prove it.
Hard to relate to some of these comments as I’ll always want more chapters with Kaladin in them. Love him so much.
@87. El Cochino
No, you’re correct. Book 3 was originally conceived as Szeth’s flashback book, and was going to have Kaladin’s depressive spiral from book 2 going on as well so that we’d parallel both Szeth and Kaladin’s growing malaise as contrasts. Eventually Brandon moved Dalinar’s flashbacks to book 3 and Szeth’s to book 5, but Dalinar’s “current era” story is still going to come to a head in book 5, so he’ll likely be the focus character there.
I don’t want to jinx it, but I hope Renarin is the hero of the whole series.
Seriously, people, even if I thought Kaladin’s presence in the story was getting tiresome, about the only thing guaranteed to be moreso is just how dedicated some of you are to complaining about him. @Gepeto, did you not notice that the exact thing you suggested (interleaving his POVs) is already happening here? He’s been POV in roughly half the available chapters (there’s one Lirin, one+prologue Navani, at least one Shallan solo), and every single one of his chapters has been shared with Shallan. And again, that’s from 9 out of probable 150+, split between two settings where a significant majority of our prime characters are present, so the continued insistence that his POV being a bit more active over a few of the chapters at all indicates that he’s getting an outsized role in the book as a whole is verging toward flat-out irritating.
Notwithstanding the fact that it isn’t remotely unusual for a story beat to take up a few consecutive chapters before shifting elsewhere, there’s already a lot in what we’ve seen so far to show that this is, in fact, all going somewhere and setting up to shake up expectations. The surprise (and to some, breath of fresh air) of his unpowered fight in the manor doesn’t have as much impact without the contrast of his growing confidence/comfort in both his surgebinding skills against Fused and his impression that he’s figuring out the shape and undercurrents of the conflict, even building some sense of camaraderie with his opposing counterparts. And yes, Kaladin’s depression and PTSD are unpleasant mental states to inhabit and we’ve been there before, but there did need to be some setup to his current status after a year gap before you can deliver on the impact of having Moash come in and not launch into “just another superhero battle.”
Similarly for Shallan and her alters, particularly considering that self-deception has always been her route to feeling self-control… we open to some chapters of her all-for-one teammates thing working smoothly… but here we are now wondering just how wrong she might be, whether she may now have an alter taking actions that none of the Three are aware of. Not to mention her apparent, now shaken, confidence about her relationship to the Ghostbloods.
As for progressing in Ideals and some of the comments’ speculation… very interested/hopeful to see some development about her mother. Mama was involved with the Skybreakers before Helaran was, and Shallan’s matricide was in self defense, right? Definitely more to explore there. And sure, some of Kaladin’s wallowing was familiar, but there’s a genuine twist here in that he’s much more explicitly receiving, and rejecting, offers of support from those close to him, people who he himself helped to rise into their own strength as full Windrunners who are themselves dedicated to saving/helping others… I know a lot of speculation leans toward the importance of his eventual acceptance that he can’t save everybody all the time, but I think there’s also a strong angle toward him needing to accept the help of others. And that ties strongly into a major and common depression-centered mindset that one is not just unable to be helped, but unworthy of it even when people seem willing to try. Which he hasn’t been in much of a position for anyone but Tien or Syl to try for a while, if ever… his past struggles with depression were more about belief in his ability to help/save others, needing to rise up and at least make the attempt to do what he feels is right even when it seems beyond him and he expects failure and despair.
This, now, is setting up the idea that while he’s as sharp as ever in coming to the aid of those who need him, acknowledging his own weakness to and accepting aid from others will, rather than revealing himself as a burden to them, make him and the rest of his team more complete and effective. Hey, that sure sounds like it might be relevant to getting his Plate, huh? And there’s real drama now in the idea that he can and does reject the well-meaning but is finding himself incapable, on his own, of pushing away a similar but utterly poisonous offer (f*ckMoash), to the point that there’s legitimate speculation about whether he could, himself, start down Moash’s path to Odium.
Who knows, maybe I’ll end up proven wrong and disappointed in the end, but this feels like some masterful setup for really yanking us (and the characters themselves) around as it moves forward. Seriously, I can’t get over how excited I am for the whole book. Don’t get so caught up in projecting onto the fact that the characters themselves are settling into a seemingly routine nature of the war and their internal conflicts that you miss the subtle, or even not-so-subtle, hints that all is not necessarily as they (want to) see it, that they’re making bad assumptions or being actively misled and manipulated, and that there’s tons more areas where we don’t know what we don’t know waiting to add to the twists and turns.
I believe Moash is being setup as Odium’s champion and Kal as Honor’s for the conclusion of the first 5 SA books. Their individual character developments have a lot of parallels – both mistreated by lighteyes, both initially wanting revenge, both very strong from a pure ability perspective (even without stormlight), both in a lot of pain, but based on their choices they follow 2 very divergent paths – with one becoming Honor’s champion and the other having wholly given himself away to Odium and being his champion.
Captainclever,
It got lost And forgotten when I wrote my posts, but I was just reminded that I wanted to say I absolutely LOVED your “these words are accepted” comment. Made me laugh.
necessary_eagle @70 – We try very hard not to let beta knowledge color our assessments. For example, I frequently go back and check my beta comments to make sure this or that is what I honestly thought the first time I read it. For example, I was surprised when I saw someone last week suggesting that Ialai poisoned herself, because that never really crossed my mind in that chapter. This week’s is much the same – by the end of the chapter I thought it was absolutely clear that Moash was pushing Kaladin to suicide.
As I’ve said before, I can see where the situation could make you wonder if our thoughts are biased by knowing too much. All I can say is that we try not to let that happen.
I remember reading WoR, and initially thinking that Kaladin’s issue with Lighteyes was a real drag on the narrative. Then, it got him thrown in jail. Then, it broke his bond with Syl. Then, he tried to paint Shallan with the same BS and got called-out for it. By that time, I was really slogging through his storyline.
But then, eventually that struggle lead him to say his Third Ideal, and when he did IT WAS GLORIOUS! Really, one of my favorite scenes in the whole series. What a payoff for that plot-line.
And you know what? I realized it wouldn’t have been such an amazing payoff for Kaladin’s character if he–and me as the reader–hadn’t slogged through most of the book with him dealing (poorly) with his issue.
I mention this because here we are again, already slogging through with Kaladin’s different, but similarly frustrating and depressing issues. And you know what? I’m willing to happily slog-along, because I know the payoff is going to be GLORIOUS!
Fourth Ideal! Shardplate! Rematch with Moash from a position of healing and strength!
I know it can be frustrating, because right from the beginning of the book Sanderson has us focusing so hard on Kaladin’s journey, and not giving us any clues as to his destination.
Hey, WAIT a minute…
So Kaladin and Laran: what? Too soon?
Over the years I have noticed some inconsistencies in descriptions of characters (i.e. Moash is first described in WoK as having dark green eyes, then in WoR and Oathbringer as having dark brown eyes then tan eyes). Here he is now referenced as having dark green eyes again, and with brown and black hair. I do not remember him ever having brown hair, just black. Another one I noticed is the scene in Oathbringer where Jasnah goes to kill Renarin, she is first described as wearing sensible boots with the messenger’s outfit, but then in the temple she moves on slippered feet.
Anyway, what I am getting at is I know and understand that these slips occur. But I have seen in the released chapters over the last few weeks that there are grammatical or spelling errors and plot inconsistencies (see above about Moash’s eyes and hair). Does anyone know if these chapters will be edited further before they are actually published? It would be a shame to have them published with these mistakes.
@many At this point, I think we all get that small but vocal portion of the fan base dislikes the focus on Kaladin. I don’t have any problem with that. I like Kaladin, you don’t, all is good. What I actively dislike is the fact that you feel the need to keep trumpeting this dislike at every possible moment. I for one would love to be able to read through these comments without it feeling like a slog. I am tired of the constant bickering about whether or not Kaladin has been focused on too much. For those of us who love Kaladin, your constant comments are raining on our parade. I’m not trying to say you shouldn’t express your opinion; I’m just trying to get it across that it has been heard and if you could tone it down until you have something unique to say about it, that would be sublime.
Did anyone else think for a moment that Kaladin had spoken the fourth ideal when he said “I just want to stop failing the people I love” and immediately thereafter the room was flooded with light? I was getting really excited for a moment and thinking about how I felt about those words as an ideal before I realized that something else was happening. Why do you think that Renarin’s appearance showed Moash a possible future and not Kaladin? Was Renarin actively using his ability or was it one of his uncontrolled visions?
@97 The tan eyes was a result of his bonding a shardblade. I’m not sure if his eye color changed along with the eye lightening or not, but that at least explains some of the apparent discrepancy.
@98, yes I meant to include that he went from dark brown to tan from bonding then back to dark brown again after losing the blade.
@91 jdfs. Except we have so many other characters who barely got any page time at all, seven orders of Radiance that barely got treatment: we have so much left to explore and we are *still* hung up on Kaladin being depressed because he cannot protect people… I get this is important, I get there will be a “moment” and maybe I will love this “moment” when I read it, but from a broader perspective, this narrow focus is cumbersome. Even more so it focuses on the one character having had the most page time already.
So even if Kaladin’s chapters have been spaced out by the Shallan’s parts, which I adore, I personally wish the narrative would move away from Kaladin’s inner problems. There is so much left to explore! So many wonderful characters to read about! So many moments to have NOT focusing on Kaladin to read about! So many Radiants to witness in action besides Kaladin!
There is just SO much else BUT Kaladin in this story, but the story keeps coming back to him when I feel it should have… expended. I cannot ask other readers to feel the same as I do, obviously, I can only try to convey my thoughts. I also think I have… made the turn of the subject. So let’s move on. I’ll try not to hate on Kaladin too much in future posts, I just no longer find him an engaging character: each time I see his name, I want to turn the page and read about all of the wonderful narrative elements that are not Kaladin-related.
So I’ll settle on ignoring Kaladin for now on and I’ll focus on reading the other characters.
“Did anyone else think for a moment that Kaladin had spoken the fourth ideal when he said “I just want to stop failing the people I love” and immediately thereafter the room was flooded with light?”
Interesting. I didn’t see it that way, but, man, I can imagine it being a total let down when you find that’s not what it was. But there’s still that, “Go Renarin!” moment to pick you up.
My daughter and I were talking earlier and joking around. We both feel like this is gearing up for a Kaladin (Honor’s champion) vs. Moash (Odium’s champion) clash. Although, we both admit that Sanderson can surprise us and do something different. (Mistborn white text) Something like, “Sazed is the real Hero of Ages? Not Vin? Snap!” Although, with the developments and foreshadowing in that book, I wasn’t really surprised in the end.
Anyhoo, she mentioned Lift as the champion, and I thought, “Oh, snap! There is a 3rd Vessel at play here! Lift as Cultivation’s champion! You just got double teamed, Odium! Wasn’t expecting that, were you!”
Lift had better not be dead. That is almost all.
“Love, you’re deliciously weird sometimes.” Storm it. That’s the highest compliment I could hope to get, and I so badly want someone to say that sentence to me. *sulk*
Brandon’s chosen system of what Stormlight does and doesn’t heal is perhaps the best balance he could make while serving these characters’ narrative needs. But as I’ve previously ranted, it endlessly annoys me because it would serve me poorly. I hate my vision impairment and desperately want it gone — but it has shaped every moment of my lived experience and I can’t imagine what living without it would be like, so it probably counts as an unwanted core part of who I am, not curable with Stormlight. My depression is not a core part of my identity, as it allegedly is for Kaladin — the idea of my accepting it as such revolts me — and thus might be cured by Stormlight, but the impacts of my vision impairment are among the driving factors in my depression and might be more so if people around me were getting magically cured of their physical disabilities when I couldn’t; altering brain chemistry (as is done by medication and maybe by Stormlight) may be essential but only goes so far, especially in the absence of situational change. Mind you, the mobility limitations induced by my vision might be reduced if I could fly, but I don’t know if I have the makings of a Windrunner and I don’t want to be a Skybreaker.
@AeronaGreenjoy take the test and find out
@103: I think I got Truthwatcher when I took the quiz a while ago. Probably accurate, though I was disappointed not to get Edgedancer.
That was a solid dialogue between Kaladin and Moash. By far my favorite moment of this whole thing.
Kaladin is wrong. A stone house can burn as well if the fire is hot enough. If I had to guess, any Surge or Voidlight created fire should be hot enough. Kaladin’s prejudice of the upper class (in Alethkar, lighteyes) is showing once again. As someone who will be working closely with lighteyes and the upper elite of other nations, Kaladin has to get over his prejudice against the upper class.
This chapter should put a nail into the coffin (no pun intended) about the Moash redemption arc. #noredemptionforMoash. Moash’s statement that vengeance can lead to peace is one of many reasons why I disagree with Moash. I am all in favor of people getting vengeance (in RL, within the confines of the law). But IMO, achieving vengeance does not equate with peace. One may get some satisfaction from his/her vengeance. However, vengeance does not replace what was lost. The only peace one could get was having what was lost returned; which is almost impossible – and was in Kaladin’s case. If Kaladin had wanted vengeance of how Roshone treated Kaladin and Kaladin’s family (ultimately leading to Tien’s death), any vengeance Kaladin received would not have brought Tien back to life. To be clear, I think that at this point in his life, Kaladin had no desire to seek vengeance for the sins Roshone committed upon Kaladin. Kaladin’s vengeance was complete when he saw Roshone’s reaction when Kaladin revealed his Sylblade and his Radiant powers. At that moment, Roshone knew Kaladin stood higher than Roshone in the Alethi social circles.
Hmm. I am disappointed that Gaz is at least a KR squire. Form what I have seen of Gaz since Shallan found him, I do not think he deserves to have his eye back. Oh well. He is a tertiary character anyways.
Shallan is fitting right in with House Kholin – she “she favored anything that tasted good and got her drunk.” The pre-WoK version of Dalinar would have loved Shallan’s drinking philosophy.
One again Shallan impresses me (and I do not mean her willingness to sample the wines in the means of ferreting (or I guess I should say minking) out a secret). The way she found the secret carvings and what they held was brilliant.
Chapter 8 once again proves why I am not a Windrunner. I would have killed Moash after he surrendered. No ifs and or buts. I would have dealt with the consequences afterwards. However, Moash would have been dead. Where is an Elsecaller like Jasnah when you need one. The ends justify the means.
The ending of this chapter was awesome. In that one moment, we see the potential of Renarin. His bonding of the corrupted Glys has given him super-powered Surge; a type of super-powered that Dalinar has by bonding the Stormfather, who holds the remains of Honor. It allowed Dalinar to create Honor’s perpendicularity (with the effect of charging gemstones as if a Highstorm occurred. To me this is another example of why it will be Renarin is the wildcard; what Odium cannot see. Rather than Dalinar or Kaladin, maybe Renarin will be the one to defeat the big bad guy in the back 5 books (whether that big bad guy is Odium or someone/thing else). Just like in OB where Renarin was able to make Adolin see a purer version of Adolin, he is able to make Moash see the purer version of Moash. Further, he is able to project that image so others can see it.
I hope this is not another case of Kaladin doing something to destroy his bond with Syl. I think it should be more akin to Dalinar having his period of doubt in OB (both when he got his memory of Evi’s death back and when he faced all his memories at the Battle of Thaylen City). I do not want to see Kaladin depressed for an entire book because he feels he killed Syl and irrevocably damaged his bond. Chapter 8 just reinforces my belief that Kaladin’s 4th Oath will be something like “It is ok if I failed to protect somebody as long as I tried my best.”
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
“I hope this is not another case of Kaladin doing something to destroy his bond with Syl.”
I’m gonna 2nd this. We already saw this in WoR. I don’t want to see it again. Syl defied the Stormfather once to return to Kaladin. I don’t think she does it again. And with their bond having advanced further, maybe if he violates his oaths again, she goes deadeye.
>L: Moash seems to subscribe to the “once an asshole, always an asshole” theory. He doesn’t care if people change, or atone for their sins, as both Elhokar and Roshone were attempting to do. Their actions led to people dying, and so to Moash, they are beyond redemption. As always, this is a fascinating moral quandary. At what point is someone beyond redemption?
I’d say attempting to commit genocide (as Elhokar did to the listeners) puts you irrevocably beyond redemption. I also think this is a pretty uncontroversial stance(if you disagree, please, reply with who you think is a counterexample).
I will be upset with this series if Team Alethi doesn’t take a long and hard examination at the terrible things they’ve done, or if they fully escape justice for the numerous heinous crimes they committed.
And regardless of the magnitude of your crimes, if you don’t even take the first step towards recognizing the harm you’ve inflicted – if you don’t even do so something so small as apologize – there isn’t any room for redemption there. Elhokar systematically exterminates Rlain’s race and never deigns to give him the slightest apology.
Even Dalinar – who required a literal Act Of God to improve his personality – has only shown that he cares only about how unintended effects of his actions hurt himself personally. He grieves Evi, who he killed by accident, but not the other young women he killed by the tens of thousands. He doesn’t regret burning the Rift, only that she was caught in the flames.
Dalinar has not taken even the smallest first step towards reconciliation with the many people he murdered for power and pleasure. What has he done for the widows and orphans of Rathalas? How about all villages he and his armies murdered, raped, and enslaved their way through? As far as the Rift goes, everything Dalinar has done so far has been about trying to salve his own personal bad feelings – not about undoing the massive harms he has committed.
“He doesn’t regret burning the Rift, only that she was caught in the flames.”
Nonsense. It’s clear in the flashback that he regretted it immediately and tried to stop it. But the flames were already out of control. He didn’t even know about Evi yet, did he?
Lyndsey. IMO, not only does Brandon brilliantly write Moash as a villain to the protagonists’s mind (and in my mind as well – and perhaps many other readers’ mind), but Brandon writes Moash in such a way that the reader (or at least me) believes that Moash believes that Moash is not a villain.
Lyndsey and Alice. I find it interesting that Moash says he found another way to escape the despair of the world: give Moash’s pain to Odium. Instead of trying to convince Kaladin to go to Team Odium (and Kaladin would therefore give his pain to Odium), Moash suggests that Kaladin just kill himself.
Moash’s apparent belief that those he kills is beyond redemption is a nice inverse of Szeth before the end of WoR. Moash tries to justify his kills because he believes his victims are beyond redemption. In effect, this makes him an emotionless killer. Szeth also killed with out apparent remorse. He justified his killings because he had to obey King T’s orders. Yet, unlike Moash, Szeth was internally tortured by his killings. Even after he realized he was not Truthless, he still cannot absolve himself. He could not stand to go into the red mist that was the Thrill during the Battle of Thaylen City.
Lyndsey. I think the only reason why Moash wanted to surrender was to try to “Wormtongue” Kaladin into trying to have Kaladin kill himself. Moash is right about one thing. He does know Kaladin very well. IMO, Moash believes he knows which of Kaladin’s buttons to push. Moash would have succeeded had it not been for Renarin’s MoA. Had Moash wanted to get inside Urithiru, then he would have kept his mouth shut. Although Moash was taking a risk that Dalinar could prevent Navani or Jasnah from slitting Moash’s throat long enough to learn Team Honor’s secrets or any other nefarious plots.
Lyndsey. When I read the scene where Moash tried to convince Kaladin to kill himself, I was reminded of Michelle Carter. She was convicted in Massachusetts of involuntary manslaughter for the texts she sent her boyfriend for him to go through with his suicide attempt – and which, unfortunately, he was successful.
I am with Lyndsey. Moash does not deserve redemption. Some people are just plain evil. He/she can make all the excuses he/she wants, but sometimes a person is just evil and beyond all redemption. For me, Moash is that person.
Alice. Where did it say that Gaz is a full Radiant; not just a squire? When Hobber first started to get his feet back, he was only a squire.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
This Chapter has a feeling of resolution for Kaladin’s and Shallan’s mini book-openingstorylines. I bet next week we get a different POV. Probably Navini as they head back to the Shattered Plains on the Fourth Bridge.
@106 – “Honor grant me the serotonin to accept the things I cannot change, the stormlight to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference”
@106/107 – I would be shocked if Sanderson recycled a plot device that nakedly. Particularly since, as some are fond of pointing out, that particular bit of character development really was wrapped up pretty thoroughly/neatly. His continued journey to the other Ideals will run along different lines, I think… which, particularly considering the Skybreakers as an example, makes sense… the 4th and especially 5th ideals are likely to be more high-concept across the board.
And @111 – Hey, good point… Kaladin doesn’t really seem like he’s up for holding down a very coherent POV at the moment. Assuming the next chapter doesn’t cliffhanger this and take us somewhere else entirely, it’s likely to be Navani or Lirin taking over the Fourth Bridge narrative line for a bit.
I got to thinking, and I wondered if my memory of Dalinar and the rift was correct. I pulled out OB and found it.
Dalinar was manipulated by Sadeas. That much is clear.
Dalinar DID try to pull back before he knew about Evi. Page 748, he says, “It’s enough…Let the rest of the people of the city escape out of the mouth of the canyon below. We have sent our signal.” Only to be told that Sadeas gave orders to make sure there was no turning back. It is only then that Tanalan tells him about Evi.
I really feel like some are missing the point here. Dalinar did things that were wrong, there is no question. But who does he apologize to? I think he has agonized and paid enough. His penance is in how he has lived his life for the last 11-12 years and the man he has become. Yes, he had the memories taken away. That doesn’t change how he has lived his life and what he has done since, even after regaining the memories
And to continue to rip in to him is kind of missing the point, no? It’s the whole pound of flesh thing. The whole difference between Kaladin and Moash, for example. One is willing to try and let the past go, as hard as it for him. The other is consumed by his desire for vengeance, for his pound of flesh.
And remember, Seth has committed himself to following Dalinar’s lead, because he sees in Dalinar a man who knows what is right.
@113 – I, for one, look forward to the Mink continuing to rip on Dalinar. Some of your point is good, and a reminder that even before the divine intervention, Evi had really been starting to have an effect on him prior to her death. But how Dalinar handles the world and his past is going to (continue to) be a big part of his development as a Bondsmith, I think. He’s going to have to, both as an aspiring good/Honorable person and per the magical requirements of surgebinding/Nahel bond, learn to do better than “it’s time to put our petty squabbles behind us now, because I say so and because it is the most convenient way forward for me personally.”
When I saw the Kaladin/ Moash heart-to-heart the first thing that came to mind was, oh crap, this is where he breaks isn’t it? Kaladin is going to shatter into a thousand pieces right here. I didn’t get the impression that Moash was trying to get Kaladin to off himself, it looked more like recruiting to me, and that maybe Odium was using Moash’s voice to channel his will. I mean the words and strategies used sound just like the rhetoric Odium used on Dalinar just one book prior. Opinions may vary.
I was also thinking of how contrary Moash was to the 1st Ideal. I’m sure Syl was trying to point that out to him. If it were anyone else Kaladin could have shielded himself from such nihilistic arguments but he is in pain and Moash was not only a friend but a confidant. The ones closest to you know just where to prod, where a wounding shot will cause the most damage. Moash may be a great character and a textbook case of villainy, but he is trash.
Let’s give it up for Renarin and his Electrum Allomancy Lightweaving! Shallan would have had to draw that Moash image to be effective, both time consuming and likely lacking the emotional impact. Seems like his corruption hasn’t completely robbed him of the Lightweaving surge. Looking forward to some more developments there.
Shallan IMO really has accepted her 4th Truth, internalized it, made it hers. She wasn’t pressing herself to progress before. She’d have been happy to stay at level 3 and have never questioned her progress without a Pattern intervention. Now she’s pushing. But something does occur to me. I think the manifestation of the Three is kinda hurting her bond. From what I read of Pattern he doesn’t seem as smart as he was before. Maybe that’s raising a red flag for Shallan even if she doesn’t want to admit it. The Three cannot be sustained indefinitely.
Lastly, I don’t anticipate Kaladin getting more than a couple chapters in part 1 now that he’s had his talk with Moash. IMO the confrontation wrapped up Kaladin’s emotional mindset during the time skip. If y’all remember, Kaladin in OB was a mess. He failed in ways no fantasy protagonist typically fails. By that I mean they don’t fail 3 times in the same book without a win at the end. Would it look right if he just magically got better during the skip knowing his issues? Would anyone have been happy if he was just a ball of light and he dealt with all his issues off-screen? Even if one felt the fights were repetitive I can see a narrative reason for it. Maybe Brandon did it to convey what everyone has been going through during the yearlong skip, constant war with regenerative enemies. Don’t know about you but if I had to fight an enemy who, even if I killed them, they come back over and over, that would be a drag. Kaladin is used as a vehicle to convey the drag of this war. Would it be the same coming from Sigzil or Rock or Teft? Maybe, but then the Moash reveal falls flat. But of course opinions may vary. Some people don’t like reading about battlefield maneuvers at all, in which case the Kaladin chapters would indeed be quite tedious.
Re: Disability
I think some of the uneasiness and varying opinions over this comes from the fact that disabled people are not an homogenous group and there is no one-size-fits-all approach when handling the topic in literature of any kind.
Neither can we just say ‘it’s just fiction, it doesn’t matter’ because of course the ideological undercurrents of books matter to readers and inform our own thoughts and opinions whether inadvertently or otherwise.
Equally, representation matters in whatever form it is consumed.
My partner (who is a full-time wheelchair user) was really disappointed when Lopen grew his arm back, but not so much when Gaz’s eye is healed. For him, Lopen is more significant than Gaz because he’s bold and vibrant. Lopen is often referred to as ‘the one-armed Herdazian’ in a way that Gaz isn’t by his eye. That cements him as a significant representation of a person with a disability.
Renarin’s epilepsy is a little more complicated. My best friend is epileptic and having watched her struggle, I know that it isn’t something she’d (personally) decide to keep if she suddenly got magical healing powers. However, epilepsy has a storied history of erasure through marriage laws, sterilisation practices etc… The idea of removing it for the sake of magical consistency sits slightly differently when considered that way.
None of that is to suggest Sanderson is doing a bad job with disability, and I personally think it makes sense that things will be healed if they aren’t strongly affixed to a sense of identity. Nor should he be expected to understand the nuisances of every single identity construct before writing characters. But, I guess we have to be mindful that he is a (presumably) able-bodied person making assumptions about the kind of disability that is acceptable. His portrayals may not be earth-shatteringly ablest but that doesn’t mean that some of the uneasiness can be completely dismissed.
More than that, I think that character development is sometimes done a disservice by the magical healing of disabilities. It is another facet of a character identity that is rarely explored in fiction (other than in very superficial ways like evoking sympathy). It would be really exciting to see a character that isn’t prevented from participating because of their disability, but who finds new and innovative ways to participate with their disability. Representation in a meaningful way.
(Very sorry for the long and boring rant, critical disability theory is my area of academic study)
Ps. I love all the chapters. Every one. From all the books.
I don’t mind infodumps about what happened in the timeskip, except that I would often have liked to see those evenrs and developments directly instead od skipping to (presumably) the next big ramping-up/emergence of conflicts. Battles are boring; I want more slice-of-life minutiae and worldbuilding. And travel, preferably, but there hasn’t been much of that for a while. I’m eager for Dawnshard.
I know, that’s a thoroughly unrealistic demand where fantasy books are concerned. So I don’t voice ir often.
This reminded me of the image of Szeth on the chapter heads in WoK. Is this the effect of the Honor blade? Something to do with the Herald the Honor blade belonged to? Good thing it was taken away from Bridge Four!
First, to those who are complaining about POV diversity, I physically cannot imagine a book doing justice to a war while only holding the perspectives of characters that don’t really participate in it. Navani and Venli are not soldiers, they are not commanders or strategists. I love the way that we get a bunch of different perspectives in these stories, but the POV also needs to serve the plot. I imagine that, for this reason, we’ll probably start getting Adolin chapters, but from what we’ve seen so far, he’s not really participating in the general war effort. Without Kaladin’s perspective, we’re basically left to getting exposition on the outcome of battles from messengers sent back to Fourth Bridge or Urithiru. I agree that another book all about Kaladin would be less than ideal, but I feel like Kaladin is a very necessary POV in this story.
Second, I definitely think that Moash here isn’t trying to get Kaladin to commit suicide. The way I read that interaction, it seemed clear that he was referring to the metaphorical oblivion of giving up his pain to Odium rather than the physical oblivion of death.
Third, @77 I would be super surprised if this happens. A human-spren relationship feels like an interesting angle that I could definitely see being explored especially in the second half of the series, but if it happens between Kal and Syl, I’d be uncomfortable.
Finally, about the actual chapter, this does seem to be an end to this part of the story, so I think we’ll get something new in the next week or two. I don’t like the way that the words “take my pain” have become so over used. I understand that they signal Odium’s involvement, but we can see Odium’s influence in Shallan’s father’s actions and words without that specific phrase. It just feels a little on the nose. It was fine in OB because it very clearly paralleled Moash and Dalinar’s struggles as both being from the same source, but now that we know and can trace those influences, I don’t think it’s necessary to always use that exact phrasing. For me it’s diluting “You cannot have my pain” which is the best line in the series thus far.
Regarding Leshwi, I do think she is as noble as she appears. Nothing in the text leads me to believe that she could have predicted the battle enough to have planned the events of the last two chapters out beforehand, or that she had enough information during the battle to know that Kal was walking into a trap. We’ve been told many times that the Singers and the Listeners are naturally of Honor, even though they are corrupted by Odium now. They fought with honor on the shattered plains and they treated their slaves more honorably than the humans treat most people in general. I’m seeing a redemption of the Singers down the line, and even if that doesn’t happen, honor is one of their established traits as a people.
Gepeto @2. It might have been a short chapter, but (IMO) it was an eventful and impactful chapter. As to the hidden journal that Shallan and Pattern discovered, I think you should withhold judgement until we learn what is in the journal. Sometimes, good things come in small packages.
Jacky Ragnarovna @@.-@. Aimia was one of the Silver Kingdoms and both Dysian Aimans and Siah Aimians are non-human.
Austin @15 & @@.-@1. If you do not like reading a novel one or two chapters a week, why are you reading the chapters released each week? Some fans are skipping the weekly chapter releases so they can enjoy the book all at once (or as much as “all at once” can be for a book that is thicker than a phonebook – and for those of you not old enough to know what a think yellow pages phone book is like, ask your parents or grandparents (depending upon how old your parents are)).
No one is forcing you to read these released chapters if you do not enjoy reading the book piecemeal. Also, no one is forcing you to read the comments (or particular comments). Sometimes, some commentors’ comments get repetitive. As a result, I skip the remainder of his/her comments. Skipping people’s comments does not make me a bad person.
KiManiak @52 & @65. Excellent point about neither Shallan not Pattern mentioning one or more spren if Gaz, Red or any other member of her team for that matter was a KR (as opposed to merely a squire).
Wetlandernw @56. Getting you to spoil things is like getting a confirmation from Brandon. Your thoughts about Shallan’s mother means the secret of Shallan’s childhood is not revealed by the end of RoW. You have mentioned in the past (as have other beta readers) that you will not intentionally spoil things revealed in RoW. Your opining confirms a negative. Had the secret(s) been revealed, you would not have opined. To be clear, I for one do not mind such implied reveal.
Gazeboist @62. Well said.
Renarin is becoming the Neville Longbottom of the Stormlight Archives. (I mean this as a good thing, in case there was any doubt). For those who have read the Harry Potter books or seen the movies, they will understand. I do not want to explain further in case those who have not read the books or see the movies and someday plan to.
Gaussian @98. I did. I at first thought Kaladin said his 4th Ideal. In retrospect, I should have realized that we did not get the Stormfather saying the Oath is accepted.
Query. If multiple KR, squires and/or proto KR speak their Oaths at the same time throughout the continent, will the Stormfather be able to respond and acknowledge acceptance of everybody’s Oaths at the same time?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@114 Oh absolutely. We saw Dalinar struggling to form the coalition because people did not trust him because of the perceptions they had of him. He will always be battling that perception, that fear that allying with the Alethi is a precursor to being taken over, because it is what the Alethi have done in the past (or appeared to do.) I guess it’s like what we saw with Elhokar. Kaladin hated him, but came to realize that he really was trying to be the best king he could be. He just wasn’t good at it. Dalinar has to continue to make amends. I just don’t subscribe to the idea that we as readers, or even individual characters in the book, are owed anything, even an apology. You can make amends in many ways, not just by saying “I’m sorry.” The biggest thing Dalinar did to make in Thaylenah, if I’m getting the details connected right, was to repair that temple. People saw him DOING something to help, not just spouting words.
Actions definitely have consequences, and Dalinar has dealt and will continue to deal with them. But the “victim” will be eaten alive if all they want is their pound of flesh.
To me these Kaladin chapters are leading to him having a mental breakdown, and him having to take a timeout ordered by Dalinar.
Renarin’s abilities are the most interesting thing. Was he showing Moash what his hidden hopes and dreams are?
Why, exactly, did Renarin not kill Moash before he could escape? I know Moash is a repeating antagonist and this is chapter 8. But from his PoV, why didn’t he Shardblade that guy directly Beyond?
Seriously, I’m tired of the Republic serial villain trope. Here’s the perfect start of next chapter: Kaladin and Renarin leave the burning building, and see Moash’s corpse lying in front of the door, its eyes burned out, and several arrows sticking out of various parts of it. Other Bridge Four members are standing and floating around the body, looking serious, happy, or horrified but determined, according to their personalities. Of course they should kill him! Why aren’t they?
Why, exactly, did Brandon have to infodump the missing year all over us at the very beginning? He’s too good a writer for that. If he had chosen to, he could have made it more gradual and let us absorb it, instead of using a flood.
@@@@@John:
There are Deaf (this particular group of hearing-lacking people capitalize the word) people who do, in fact, call it “erasure” to give a child cochlear implants.
@@@@@Obi Wan Cannoli:
There’s plenty of room for that. Gepeto wasn’t saying that all stories about good people are bad. She isn’t enjoying this particular part of this particular plot, is all.
@@@@@AndrewHB:
What extra Surge? That’s Illumination. It’s actually exactly what Shallan does, inspiring people by showing them their best selves, although obviously the style is different.
I only disagree with Gepeto on one thing. She would rather read less Kaladin. I’m fine with a long Kaladin arc if only it wasn’t all about feeeelings, rather than things happening. It’s the navel-gazing part that makes it so uninteresting to me. Not being depressed, being repetitively self-obsessed. Even in the fight scenes, he can’t really focus on anything outside himself for more than 30 seconds.
I’m looking forward to what I am certain comes just a bit later, where we see super-depressed Kaladin from outside rather than his thought-loops. As I mentioned in another thread, this reminds me unpleasantly of MISTBORN SPOILERS BELOW
Sazed spending what seemed like years thinking about how horrible it was that he couldn’t use logic and evidence to prove any religion true. This really depressed him after he spent decades studying this stuff, somehow doing so without actually thinking about it until the middle of a huge crisis where his help was needed. I don’t like Hamlet, who dithers for most of a play, and Sazed was worse, and now Kaladin is entering Sazed territory.
1/ I am not convinced that Moash was trying to induce Kaladin to commit suicide. I think he was trying to show Kaladin that giving his pain away and join him could save Kaladin, and if that did not work, also perhaps try break/damage his bond with Syl.
What I am interested to find out is if there was anything magical, or was it completely psychological, that prevented Kaladin from hearing Syl. Either way, this might be an important bit of information for down the line.
Moash is gonna continue to try to push Kaladin to joining Team Odium.
2/ For those that were shipping KaLeshwi, sorry to say, it looks like Kaladin was set up and delivered right to Moash waiting in the basement. Leshwi was toying with Kaladin and it almost paid off.
3/ I was surprised to see Roshone was (also) killed this early, but I suspect this was to help move the story forward, as opposed to keep revisiting the same things we have already read about on a minor character (which is a funny statement, given the vast amount of flashbacks in these books). Not wasting time in dealing with a Roshone redemption and/or a power grab attempt is probably a smart move.
I will say this: at what point do we continue to hold people as irredeemable? Yeah, Roshone was not a good person, but perhaps the events over the last year, combined with Laral’s influence, started him on a path to be a better person. People cannot deny their past and what they have done, but we should (cautiously) give them credit for attempting to be better.
This also probably applies to a lot of people in these books.
I am not implying Roshone was redeemed – I am saying I think he was trying.
And maybe that was all we needed to know about his redemption story.
4/ Starting to see why Renarin will be a big player in the back 5 books.
So much tantalizing groundwork is being done to set him up for something big.
5/ If Ialai had someone close to Dalinar, then I wonder if she was able to sniff out that Shallan was posing as Chanasha.
Ialai knew she had little time left before someone came for her, and when presented the opportunity, she not only wanted Shallan to have her secrets (perhaps as someone who she felt would seek the truth) but was also able to kill herself on her own terms. She did not want to be held captive by anyone – not sure if the Ghostbloods or Kohlins were worse in her mind.
I do not believe Shallan killed Ialai, thought I am not completely closing the door on someone else in the party doing the job… but that seems like a terrible (and potentially convoluted) murder mystery storyline to follow.
6/ We are 8 chapters into a book, which is not even 5% of the total word count.
Why are people complaining about too much Kaladin or too much Shallan or not hearing from X or Y.
8 Chapters, folks.
Perspective.
Does anyone else notice how much Moash and Darkness are in this chapter? Both emotionless, and killing for justice?
For those complaining about Kaladin: I think you’ve told us enough, and what is telling us more going to do? We get that you don’t like Kaladin, and don’t want to read more about him. Please don’t complain to us, we can’t do anything about it. If you’re really that annoyed maybe you can tell that to the author, and maybe something can be done about it. I personally like Kaladin, and don’t want to hear about how much you don’t want to read about him. I’m glad Gepeto is moving on from it, and I will try to ignore the other comments if there are others about it. We already had a chapter of comments on this, and I’d appreciate it if you’d not put that on here.
I think its good Gaz got his eye back, it’s hard not being able to see, and I can just imagine what it was like for him, probably even better than how I could see when I got my glasses, which was really amazing!
What of the withered old piece of fruit? Could it be from Shinovar?
@120 Andrew. I cannot wait to see what is in that journal, but I’ll admit I was waiting for a bomb to drop with this rare vintage wine. It could be the bomb hasn’t dropped yet.
I don’t think Alice is trying to spoil us… It is a difficult situation to be in: we all weight down everything she says because we are an annoying bunch of curious pesky readers. She has always been careful in the past, so even if she did inadvertently spoiled something, I am not bothered. Besides, we all knew there was more to Shallan’s past, now didn’t we?
@123 Carl. Yeah. Something along those lines, but I have agreed to drop the topic. It has been much, today, I can see why it upset others. I will stay away from the Kaladin topic unless I feel I have something brilliant to add, but your thoughts do summarize what bothers me and why I struggle with this narrative. I’ll keep an open-mind though, maybe it’ll win me over, eventually.
@125 edgedancer. I agree it has been much… So I apologize for this and I have decided to move onto other topics. I think the fruit was… a grape.
On Dalinar: I think I’ll stay away from that topic… I’ll just say I cannot wait for his book to be revealed. I was really hoping it wouldn’t happen during the time gap and all clues indicate it hasn’t happened yet. So fingers crossed and when it does, it’ll be great to discuss this narrative, again.
Does anyone else think after seeing that torn Moash image caused by Renarin is that the honor Spren is waiting for him? The one kal mentioned is there but not binding to anyone.
There seems to be alot more mistborn crossover with these fabrial epigraphs than I expected going into the book. I think this is very interesting and I have some speculation based on this crossover. Many gems are actually crystallized (and oxidized) metal, so it could be that Sanderson will use this to take some of the rules about metals from Mistborn and add a twist to how they affect the spren in Stormlight.
Ruby, Topaz and Sapphire are Aluminum oxides with some other trace elements (like iron or titanium) that give them their distinct colors. Since Aluminum in Mistborn is (spoiler) used to make other types of metal burning inert, it could be that these gems are best at trapping fabrials. Ruby is the only one of the gems that have Chromium mixed in, which (judging by how that metal works in Mistborn) could be used to cancel out or transfer some of the sprens’ abilities. Sapphire is the same Aluminium crystal but with traces of Iron or Titanium (as well as possibly other metals), so (again judging by Mistborn’s rules), it could be used to make the spren more able to pull or push or do other physical work than normal. Topaz has Fluorine as part of its structure, which doesn’t come up in Mistborn. This could just mean that its better at trapping spren than other gems, but doesn’t have any additional properties.
Garnets, Emeralds, and Heliodors are Silicate crystals (so mostly quartz) but with Iron and Aluminium (or Beryllium) forming part of the structure. I feel like these could follow similar rules as the previous types of gems where the ones with traces of iron or aluminum have an effect on the spren, but the rest do not. However, because they contain less aluminum overall, they may also be less effective at trapping the spren.
Amethyst and Smokestone are Quartz crystals with traces of iron or other metals to give different colors. These have very little aluminum which could mean that they aren’t very good at trapping spren, or it could be that Sanderson can just make up additional properties for them based on the world of SA.
Zircons as described in Stormlight Archive seem to be very different from the Quartz + Zirconium compound on Earth. They may fit into the previous two crystals or maybe Sanderson can just give them his own rules.
Diamonds (on Earth) are pure carbon crystals which don’t seem to have any of the metallic properties you might see in Mistborn. They also are much more common in SA than they would be on Earth (at least without explosives and machines to allow for deep mining). Since they are also very symbolic in literature, it could be that Sanderson will adjust these gems to give the boring carbon configuration some special properties, or maybe they’ll be like “wine” where what we think of as “diamonds” are slightly different on that world. RAFO, I guess.
@71
It’s the same thing Shallan’s Dad said when people disappointed him. Odium’s influence is that of surrendering your pain and blaming other people, Amaram did this as well.
Cultivation is trying to prevent Dalinar from doing it, part of the reason she manipulated Taravangian to push Dalinar to swear oaths only if he was no longer a warmonger. She broke him slowly and “cultivated” his growth in a certain way.
@others Shallan’s second secret probably has to do with something she did to Heliran, he’s not a good person and I strongly suspect he tried, and failed, to kill her. Somebody told Shallan that she could summoner her shardblade without waiting 10 heart beats; she brings it up in the second book.
she was too young when she killed her mother to remember a detail like that, she had to have heard it from somebody who knew she was a radiant when she was older, it also has to be something traumatic because she’s ignoring it and honestly the only relationship she had with a person who would have that info is Heliran. Shallan knows why Heliran was in that field with Amaram, and it was also in some way partially her fault.
One thing I’m surprised that nobody has speculated on yet:
It’s being made clear that metals in fabrials have some similar kind of effects to the ones that they have when burned by Allomancers. So — that Voidlight-powered Nahel-bond-suppressing fabrial…any bets on it being made of aluminum?
@2 @14. Gepeto It’s totally cool if you don’t like the character, their motives or what drives them!! But they haven’t chosen to be depressed. They can’t help it, nor want to be depressed. Most people with depression take years to make any progress. I think seeing very little change in Kaladins depression is a fair, and accurate portrayal of depression. That’s what makes it hard to read. It’s hard reading about a character, and seeing little progress, seeing them gloomy. (hard both in the sense that its upsetting). But to accurately portray depression in a character, it also means showing their life long struggle. We all want him to be happy, but depression doesn’t work that way.
By saying you want to see Kaladin fall to Odium, you are basically say that you want to see a person succumb to their depression they have been struggling with for most of their life, and when finding the light, they die for, all for a cool plot line. You’re totally allowed to have that opinion! But it is a touch insensitive to people who suffer depression.
Couple things.
1) Unless I missed something in there Gaz isn’t a radiant. We know that Lopen wasn’t a radiant yet regrow his arm as part of being a squire. Seems more likely that Gaz is one too. I think if he had a spren then it would have alerted him to the possibility of greater secrets. Whereas Shallan states they won’t find much. I dunno the wording doesn’t add him up to that.
2) I am really curious to know what the fourth ideal for the windrunners is now. It’s going to be a doozy.
3) Am I crazy or do Kalladin and Leshwi have a…..moment. Or as much of a moment as two pseudo immortals locked in combat could have. Kaladin seems excited to fight her, I know he has a thing for how the fused fly and all. I think there’s more there to explore. Would be interesting to see how a relationship with a fused and KR would work out.
4) This one isn’t pertinent to this chapter more of an observation. Seems like a lot of Radiants have lost siblings. Kaladin, Tien. Shallan, Hellaran. Dalinar, Gavilar. Jasnah, Elhokar. Venli, Eshonia. Szeth, presumably his whole family when he became truthless. Can’t help but notice that there is one “Radiant” who hasn’t. Renarin, Ahdolin. It is….a pattern.
@Nik_the_heratik:
I was amazed how much cross-series continuity there was in the Stormlight Archive starting with The Way of Kings. I thought Brandon would be holding crossovers back for another 10 years or so. Glad I was wrong, it’s fun. (Have you picked out the various Mistborn, Elantris, and White Sand characters wandering around in the background?)
About the chemistry of gemstones: Brandon has said that for these, what matters is color, not chemistry (as I recall). Roshar seems to be the intersection of all the other Shardworlds’ magics, so we get metals and breathing in a misty form of Investiture (Scadrial), color and more breathing investiture (Nalthis), sapient Splinters of the resident Shards (Sel, arguably Threnody), and even a resident Shard hiding in a big, remote forested area (First of the Sun). The Heralds Return from death in a vaguely similar but not identical manner to the Returned of Nalthis.
I haven’t seen much of a connection to Taldain yet, but I probably just missed it.
@David_Goldfarb:
I’ll cover that bet. If it was aluminum, it would also suppress the Investiture-use of the Fused, and it clearly does not. Might be an alloy, though, I guess.
There’s a WoB that larkins do basically the same thing as Leechers on Scadrial. There’s also one that a Leecher could prevent someone from summoning a Shardblade (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/120-warsaw-signing/#e1899). One wonders if the metal in the fabrial is chromium, and the Voidspren within is a corrupted Luckspren.
@blueskies:
Spoiler for the unpublished The Way of Kings Prime (the original draft of TWoK, which was thoroughly rewritten years later): The Dalinar sons did not have that distinction in the original.
On the wine, my brother was rereading WoR the other day and found a line that said “The poison has been delivered, the vintage is the sign.” In a Ghostbloods chapter, I think this was the payoff of that foreshadowing.
I absolutly loved this chapter. As someone who suffers from depression I realy live how Kaladins depression is depicted here. I thought he was much to active in Oathbringer after what happened in Kholinar and I hope we finally see the repercusions for this.
To me it was allways clear that Kaladin was the protagonist at least of the first five and I never had a problem with that. Most books have much more narrow focus on one protagonist so I like the variety I‘m getting here. But I must admit I‘m not a fan of too many viewpoints.
A correction, the chapter in question was Ym’s interlude, but the wording is nearly identical to that used by Ialai about the wine.
@61 – I think you have nailed it. I think Leshwi is training Kaladin to not accept other Windrunner’s rights to be protectors thus delaying his swearing the 4th ideal. Leshwi speared Sigzil then spared him in a rather dramatic manner. Kaladin came to the rescue, mostly because he feared failure. Fear is never a good motivator for protagonists and Leshwi is playing Kaladin like a fiddle – Kaladin didn’t save Sigzil, Leshwi spared him. Chalk up another Kaladin-failure. Probably Kaladin’s failure to progress to 4th and/or 5th ideals will be a big factor in the low point you mention. In fact, Kaladin was just saved by Renarin, the “lowliest” of the bunch. He is broken and I doubt we hear much from him while he tries to heal.
I hope the King’s Drop with Nergaoul inside is going to be made into a fabrial. Anyone else excited to see how that plays out?
Let’s talk about the elephant/alethi in the room – Alethi still support slavery and oppressing/privileging people based on eye-color . They are still morally bankrupt as a culture. Kaladin and probably Dalinar have to deal with that at some point. I don’t see how Kaladin can protect-those-who-can’t-protect-themselves while slavery exists in his own home culture. Going to be very disappointed if Kaladin progresses without dealing with the slavery issue. It is written on his forehead after all.
Me encanta kaladin. Es mi personaje favorito.
Kaladin, Dalinar y Renarin. Nunca voy a leer bastante de ellos
@138 Iki:
A mi, me encanta a muchos personajes, incluyendo Kaladin. Me gusta estes partes del libro. Es dificil esperar hasta podemos comprarlo y leerlo.
1: Sanderson has to write for multiple audiences. I, for one, have no problem with how he writes the chapters and who is in them. I would like to see Venli and a little more Dalinar, I would like to see Adolin and all our friends in the Coalition. But I’m willing to be patient. And, honestly, I probably would have cried this chapter if I wasn’t speed reading through due to a time restriction.
2: If Kaladin goes evil, it will not be “interesting” or “make his character worthwhile”. It will be heart-wrenching.
3: Gaz is completely deserving of his redemption and now requires only growth. I can see him accidentally becoming a different order of KR and still following Shallan until she finds out because he’s too nervous to tell her.
4: There are many connections to Scadrial’s magic here… and it’s too darn obvious to be unimportant.
5: I think the Heavenly Ones could definitely switch sides and there’s likely incohesion among the singers that caused the trap for Kaladin.
1.5: Again, PLEASE, quit being picky about how Brandon chooses to write his book. It’s not a book meant just for you or any one person. Brandon is not a bad writer if he and many others enjoy writing/reading about (and for some, identify with) a character that you don’t.
Gaz’s missing eye, and the associated feeling that there was something hiding there in the darkness which he kept turning to try to see, was a big part of his character, described both through his POV and through Shallan’s.
I think it’s cool that his eye regrew, but I feel like it would’ve been much better happening from his POV to address that darkness finally going away. Having this happen (not to mention his becoming a squire or Radiant) “off-screen,” and only being mentioned in passing, seems to leave his earlier sections unfulfilled or forgotten.
All this talk of Shallan’s brother Heliran makes me think of her other brothers who were sent to her by Mraise. Could they be the spies who have gotten close to Dalinar?
I thought the acute angle joke was ok, just not the great delight that “divide by zero” was.
@@@@@ 142 goddesimho
I preferred the acute angle one more because it’s a bit more subtle. Ivory and Pattern have such great speech patterns.
It’s interesting that Moash may need validation from Kal, seeing as they are so similar but made different decisions. Both running frantically at the opposite ends of their shared pathology. But I doubt that’s it. If Moash is operating independently here I would be shocked. I don’t think he needs validation from a “friend” about his solution to emotional suffering and the burden of unfair heritable struggles inherent in physical existence.
This is just a team Odium sales pitch with a psychological warfare win/win outcome. It really comes through in Moash’s final paragraph that encourages Kal towards the second option (suicide) because Odiash/Modium knows Kal’s pathology finds the first option too repulsive. If Kal can’t get behind the idea of retroactive removal of previous guilt and pain with the additional “benefit” of empowered retribution without any follow-on emotional fallout, then the second path to the elimination of his pathological burden is still a huge blow to team Unity/Honor (Honity? Unior? Eh, whatever).
The overall trick to pulling this off is the theme of responsibility and the fallout of feeling burdened/heavy laden.
Kaladin’s case is a little different from Dalinar’s in that Kaladin suffers from pride. A bit of a god complex really, a classic surgeon if there ever was one depicted in a fantasy series. Kal mimics Odium in a way. Other people don’t get to live their lives and make their choices and fight their battles with me by their side doing what I can, nope. I can shield them from the potential consequences of their decisions and then blame myself when I don’t succeed and someone dies. Fundamental attribution error with a dash of missassgnment of agency. It’s my job to carry everyone’s burdens for them, even their burden of death. Death is a tragic adventure no one can take from another person, it’s the most painful truth that I see parents struggle with when their children have come to their end of life or when working with a Veteran’s survival guilt.
No wonder Kal feels absolutely exhausted, who wouldn’t? Now just lay that burden down because they’re just going to die anyway and you can too because if you’re dead you don’t have to keep windrunning around and accumulating burden after burden. Or flying in front of the Storm or whatever Witty analogy that fits. If Kal were to die in combat or was assassinated then Dalinar’s Radiants would recover, maybe even be inspired to greater heights. If Kal completes suicide after wasting away from a depressive despair? Odium get way more out of that than an inspirational death. Kal isn’t the only Windrunner windrunning around now. There are other Radiants to contend with.
I don’t think Moash wants to drive Kaladin to kill himself, or deliberately use his knowledge of Kaladin’s weaknesses against him. He thinks he has found a way to deal with his problems and wants to share his solution with his friend.
It couldn’t have been an Oath for Kaladin, he isn’t Shallan who needs truths.
If Kaladin’s story is so boring, why is nobody talking about Shallan?
A lot of comments this week! I just came here to say that I am loving the preview chapters. I don’t like binge watching TV, but I have no self control with books and always “binge-read”. I love being forced to slow down so I get to enjoy the journey (!) and speculation.
Also, I clutched my hand to my heart and squealed when Renarin appeared. That was AMAZING! My 4 year old had just come downstairs from rest time and ran to me asking what happened. I for one am absolutely loving this book so far and am really enjoying the emotional journey.
I’m not one for profanity, but I despise Moash. I absolutely thought he was trying to encourage Kaladin to kill himself, his wording was very specific in my opinion and clearly referenced suicide rather than pledging allegiance to Team Odium.
jdfs @91 – I think you may be correct that there needs to be an ideal for Kaladin along the lines of being willing to accept help from others.
@142 goddesshimo. This is a good theory, but I am leaning towards believing it is Ishnah. How she came to befriend Shallan was just too suspicious… While a good theory, I am not sure I would enjoy reading Shallan being betrayed by someone she loves so much… I’d rather it is someone she cares less for.
@144 CireNaes. In his annotations, Sanderson said Moash wants validation and to believe he is right. So I think he was desperate to get Kaladin’s approval even if getting it meant destroying Kaladin. Approval matters more than friendship, to him.
I find you write a good explanation for Kaladin’s character: he wants to protect every single living soul and to shield them from their own decision-making. I, however, find it… too extreme. Are there really people truly able to take it to the extremes Kaladin takes it? Is it even realistic? Perhaps this is why I struggle so much with Kaladin’s character: his mindset is so extreme, it has suspended my disbelief so I naturally disengage myself from the character and his narrative. I cannot be moved by it because it finds it too implausible.
I guess perhaps this is a reason. I am just trying to understand here why I can’t seem to enjoy the character as much as everyone else. I enjoy plenty of very different characters in other books.
Gepeto
I respect that. Kal’s presentation is extreme. Drawing away from it is as much of a natural reaction for some as moving towards it is for others. The reaction in real life can turn into emotional detachment or some flavor of co-dependency.
It took me a few years and a good mentor to overcome my own reactions both towards and away when interacting with or directly treating people with extreme features informed by their trauma histories. I have found the balance lies in being willing to feel sad and not making decisions for other people. Taking lots of breaks. Coffee,I love coffee.
@132 Gotta say that whole “lost sibling” thing is pretty questionable when you look into it more deeply. Shallan was at least somewhat Radiant prior to losing Heliran, and Jasnah was at least three oaths deep when Elhokar died and seems to have taken his death best among the Kholins. Meanwhile the deaths of Tien, Gavilar, and Eshonai have played a *huge* role in their siblings becoming Radiant (though they aren’t the exclusive cause by any means – Kaladin was isolated by his depression and his place in the village long before Tien died, and Venli similarly seems to have been similarly troubled growing up in Eshonai’s shadow). Not to mention, of course, that Eshonai and Gavilar were at least to some extent on their way to bonding the spren that ultimately bonded with their siblings after their death. And we have no way of knowing whether Szeth even had any siblings. If anything, his critical familial relationship appears to have been with his father, who disowned him after he became Truthless. And, one final note: Adolin is pretty clearly headed for Radiance himself, either as an Edgedancer (given his decision to join Kaladin in prison, his ability and willingness to understand Renarin, and of course his seven-heartbeat shardblade) or as a Stoneward (given his rather obvious parallels to Talanel). His principle barrier to such seems to have been that he never experienced the social isolation necessary to open the way for the Nahel Bond (see the order in which Bridge 4 members gain their powers; it’s all about social isolation and loneliness for that first, order-independent oath), but his difficulty contributing to the efforts of the Radiants around him, coupled with possible issues he could have if Shallan spirals down further seem to be setting him up for exactly that.
@137 While it’s pretty obvious to me that Stormlight is ultimately going to thematically revolve around how a society deals with the legacies of colonization, genocide, and slavery (about the only way Sanderson could have been more transparent about this is if he had Honor shouting “INTEGRATE” instead of “UNITE THEM”, and then he wouldn’t get to write ten massive tomes getting to the point now would he), I don’t think that Kaladin himself is going to have to grapple with personal support for slavery, because he’s never demonstrated it. The persistence of his brand seems to have more to do with his trauma than his acceptance of his status as a dangerous ex-slave.
Compare this to related issues that Stormlight occasionally touches on: Kaladin has been a bit of a dumbass about women (Lyn and her scouts) and minorities (Rlain), but he’s never taken an active role as an oppressor. Even his desecration of the dead in WoK is an act that is done out of desperation and ignorance, rather than malevolence, and he’s made to know pretty much immediately that he’s done wrong. I think that particular act may be something that he has to deal with in terms of his personal relationship with Rlain, just as he had to deal with his biases in admitting the scouts as squires and in giving Rlain a spear, but I don’t think it’s fundamental to his growth as a Windrunner, if that makes sense.
Dalinar, now. Dalinar, as a member of the prior ruling class and a current leader, absolutely is going to need to grapple with how he and his nation have treated those “beneath” them. It’s all over his character arc, from learning about Roshone’s actions after he was sent to Kaladin’s village, to the way Queen Fen and Prime Yanagawn and the Azir react to his overtures, and now to the way the Mink has been ribbing him. I expect this to ultimately result in him training or maybe just naming a successor Bondsmith from among the surviving Listeners (or possibly a turned New Singer, once that starts to be a thing, but who knows what role such a character might play). That, of course, relates to my theory that he’s going to die sometime between the climax of book 5 and the start of book 6, but even if that’s a bad call on my part I expect him to have a long and serious talk with characters like Abronai and especially Zuln (my preferred candidate for Listener Bondsmith, #RlainForTruthwatcher) once they’re back in the story.
All of which is to say, now that I’ve finished rambling about character arcs and speculating about future events in the series: Kaladin will probably not be a major focal character for reckoning with the crimes of the Alethi people or Rosharan humanity, although those are important elements to the series; Dalinar probably will be.
Gepeto 126: Now that you mention that I think it is a grape or a raisin at least.
Iki 138: Kaladin es uno de mi personajes favoritas tambien!
Gepeto @148. Earlier in this thread you said you would enjoy reading a plot where Kaladin turned to Team Odium. Yet in @148, you said “I am not sure I would enjoy reading Shallan being betrayed by someone she loves so much… I’d rather it is someone she cares less for.” I find this dichotomy interesting. Not sure why I find it interesting, but I do.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I agree with the people saying that Moash’s goal may be to kill Syl or break her bond with Kaladin, rather than to induce Kaladin to commit suicide.
@138 and 139: Mi personaje favorita es Lift, pero me encanta Kaladin y Dalinar tambien.
@150, Gazeboist:
I have a crackpot theory that I am now personally committed to. I will black it out, even though a guess from me is not technically a spoiler.
In Elantris, there were half-dead half alive people, the post-Reod Elantrians. They were fixed by a super-symbol being drawn.
Well, Rosharan magic doesn’t care as much about symbols as Selish magic. So what does it care about? Oaths.
What was the biggest oath we know about in the history of Roshar? The Oathpact.
So, how can the deadeye spren be restored? By swearing a big, big oath.
I think Adolin will swear himself into the Oathpact and replace Jezrien, thus fixing the soul of at least Mayalaran and possibly other Shardblades, and also buying Team Radiant another Desolation-free time to prepare and rebuild. This would presumably yank the other Heralds back to Braize. The interval between Desolations would be very short, because one of them (Kalak?) would break very quickly, or possibly Odium would use another Herald-murder dagger to just kill them off on Braize … except for one, because dying isn’t breaking under torture. If they all die on Braize, would he be stuck there forever?
Anyway, that’s my crackpot theory.
@154
I appreciate the theory, and while I do not agree all of it, I do agree that someone needs to become a herald (or more, if other heralds are killed / leave) so that there are once again 10 of them. That whole prologue intro with Galivar and him wanting/trying to become a Herald has to be more than just a conversation in passing. The result, as you described, for an opportunity of desolation free time.
The reformation of the Heralds and the renewal of the Oathpact will be the culmination of book 5 – but I do not think the Oathpact will necessarily be about Odium and the Fused, but perhaps something larger or different.
That “free time” will be the time gap between the first 5 and the second 5 books. at which point the next desolation (or equivalent) will have the Heralds return.
@152: Andrew. Huh, interesting…
I am bothered by the idea Shallan could be betrayed by one of the beloved brothers she worked so hard to save. I really do not want her to deal with more problems than the ones she currently has. I also find she is an interesting character with tons of potential for future narratives: she is involved with the Unmades, with the Ghostbloods, she will have this mission in Shadesmar… While I find her character arc, in OB, was a bit messy and overdone, she remains a character with a great many alternatives for future arcs. Even the Veil/Radiant stuff could unravel in a great many ways: there is no one predictable outcome, there is a variety of outcomes for her. Hence, I don’t need Shallan to get betrayed nor to get tempted by Odium to be interesting: she already is interesting.
On the reverse, Kaladin is a character I find has very little possibilities for future arcs besides blasting in light and saving everybody. Unlike Shallan, he does not have an interesting narrative: he is involved with nothing besides his Windrunners. He could potentially have an arc tied with the Parshendis, but that doesn’t seem as mysterious as the whole combo Shallan got. Hence, him going down another, unsuspected, probably painful, certainly heart-wrenching honestly sounds like a great alternative for his character. At the very least, it would take him away from the road of predictability and it would open up more possibilities for his character than just… saying the 4th oath we can all more or less guess and do his “Kaladin fights”.
I guess, I find the idea of Kaladin becoming Odium’s Champion a tempting one, a step outside the more predictable road he has been walking on. On the reverse, Shallan is everything but predictable, so I do not feel she needs additional drama.
Makes sense?
153 Nina: Si, Lift es otro de mis favoritos!
@@@@@CireNaes 144 (& 147/148) – Oh wow, there it is, that description of Kaladin with the “surgeon’s god complex” is a fantastic breakdown of what I’m getting at as far as the psychological limitations he’s imposing on himself and needs to lay down before he can speak a 4th (or 5th?) Ideal that revolves around accepting the assistance, sacrifice, autonomy of others.
I personally lean toward that being his 4th, and what gets him his Plate, considering the repeated teasers that the Windspren are just going nuts waiting for him to figure it out so they can do the thing, and the thematic link to being strengthened by outside aid. It’s also still a bit more on the personal, inward-focused side. Whereas the much-postulated “triage” oath about needing to let go of those he can’t/couldn’t/shouldn’t save is a bit more abstract, and makes a great setup for a final reconciliation with Lirin either late this book or in #5, considering we’ve opened the action here with a pretty contentious initial meeting between them.
Speaking of which (though I’ve got a couple other steps to get through before it gets back to Lirin), @@@@@ Gepeto and your feeling that his god-complex schtick is unrealistically over the top… well, for one thing, it’s pretty explicitly called out as pathologically extreme in-text/world, so it’s genuinely not exactly something a “healthy” mindset should be looking at from the outside and thoroughly identifying with, but please trust me/ those of us saying that there’s a deep ring of truth to it considering where he’s coming from. One part of it relates to a point of nuance I’d already wanted to make in response to your comment @@@@@100, which is that Kaladin isn’t depressed because he can’t save people. That’s not what depression is… when what you’re feeling is specific to and relatively proportional to external circumstances, that’s just being sad. Grief is a real thing separate from depression and there’s nothing inherently pathological about it… though the fact that grief counseling is now so widely accepted, more widely for that particular circumstance than for counseling/therapy in general I think, speaks to how commonly it can become debilitating even for those without other compounding issues. Anyway. Kaladin is depressed as a matter of brain structure/chemistry. It can be modulated by external circumstances, but it’s clear, and very true to life, that it haunts him even when things are going about as well as they possibly can.
Saving people, for a variety of reasons, is his coping mechanism. Depression makes him feel worthless, but he’s at least got this one thing that he feels competent at, that makes him of value to others, and so he clings to it fanatically… one might even call it an addiction. Much of that definitely goes back to his relationship with Lirin, their whole argument about taking/saving/taking-to-save lives. He was raised from the start with this duality of save/kill as both absolute (you’re either one or the other, that’s it), and the epitome of Good/Bad: Lirin’s judgmental/clumsy attempt to inoculate him against some of the more toxic elements of Alethi culture. It’s pretty clear that he idolizes his father a great deal, and Lirin has always been very outspoken in his disapproval of fighting or killing even before that applied specifically to Kaladin, so it’s something Kal took in starting well before he was capable of much nuance. Then go ahead and compound that with the guilt and responsibility he feels over Tien’s death being his first and most personal failure to live up to his assertion that he can save lives by taking lives. There’s got to be some deep part of him that believes he could have convinced his father, gained his approval, if he had just been able to bring Tien home safely.
And that’s not even getting into how hard it has to be to let go of the drive/need to save everyone when, to this point, it’s been divinely reinforced. He’s been granted ever-increasing ability to harness phenomenal cosmic power based specifically and literally on his increasing dedication to protecting others. And every climactic moment so far for the sake of people he didn’t even remotely like at the time, after having suffered through yet more deaths among his own close companions that he somewhat justifiably believes he could have prevented had he just been able to level up sooner.
Which, by the way, has already taken at least one significant twist in the “Kaladin fights” you’ve found so tiresome. He could never have saved Sigzil by being faster or better or even having Plate… instead, it turns out that he saved Sig by having spared a life that in all likelihood he could easily have (heck, potentially already has on multiple occasions) taken without hesitation. Between that implication that his further development as a Windrunner is based outside of the soldierly view of protection that’s been his crutch up to now, and his building connection first to that band of newly-conscious Listeners and now to Leshwi/the Heavenly Ones setting him up as the human who’s most likely to open up the bridgehead between the “good guys” on either side, I really think you’re selling his character development short by assuming it’s just buildup to another *poof*dazzle*fight more* moment. Admittedly tough to think of a scenario off the top of my head where his manifesting plate is the answer to a key climactic conflict outside of a fight/battle, but I’ve also never claimed to be any kind of good/creative storyteller myself. So let’s not forget that there’s a whole secondary attribute of Leadership to the Order, and while Kaladin’s certainly able to command and inspire, his “god complex” thing is pushing him to try to be hero, idol, savior, and holding him back from truly being a leader.
@127 My guess is that the waiting spren is for Rock who I suspect is still a Squire. I think it’s that important spren, Syl’s auntie, that seemed to acknowledge his offering in OB. Rock seems headed for quite an arc imo, considering that by winning 3 shards (Amaram’s Plate and 2 Blades), shouldn’t he now technically have a right to become King of all the Horneater Peaks?
@154 I have a similar “crackpot” theory myself. Only I think that each 10 of our focus Radiant characters (what I meant by that is the main and focus radiant of every order) are going to replace the Heralds in the Oathpact or at least they’re going to be wielding the Honorblades. So Jezrien’s sword would go to Kaladin. Taln is going to remain a Herald and Ash is going to replace Chana. But I do not think that the new Oathpact will be the same as the old one. Millenia of torture seems like an awful conclusion to the story.
@154 I love it! Beautiful nonsense.
I don’t know what shape things will ultimately take or what will happen with the Oathpact – I think we need more info about the nature of the Oathpact, the potential influence of double-dealing Heralds (*cough* Ishar *cough*), and how exactly it came to be before we can start to speculate on replacing it with whatever will ultimately resolve things between Odium and Roshar (and possibly eject Odium out into the Cosmere? We know that the Cosmere’s USoUD is going to be Mistborn Era 4, not Stormlight, so that seems quite plausible to me as a victory that would be satisfying and positive for Stormlight itself while setting up the stakes of Mistborn Era 4). That said, I am pretty sure that Adolin is somehow going to be the keystone character in whatever resolution we see. I just think there’s too heavy a parallel between him as the essential character that Sanderson didn’t plan for and Talanel as the greatest of the Heralds who was never supposed to be one.
I love the development of Kaladin, and I am eager to see how the potential of the Radiants are developed through him and others. Particularly, I am curious about what the next oath will be and how it will relate to the Armour that the Radiants of the past have had. I have loved the development of Kaladin as a character, and I think it is obvious a lot of work has gone into his development. But, I think he needs to admit he needs help! More than just squires/assistants, but a real confidant/copilot/companion/spouse. Also, perhaps a little escitalopram to get him through this tough time while he learns to deal with all this negative self talk.
My own guess is that the next oath will some how be Kaladin admitting that despite all the powers and abilities he has, in the end, there is still something lacking, and it is not enough, and there are still failures– and when he admits that, added strength/armour will come. But, we don’t give up just because we fail! Fall down 7 times, stand up 8!
I don’t know if this was mentioned but in the next to last chapter of Words of Radiance Dalinar has a dream
Warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping, piercing warmth. A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He stared at that light and was not blinded. The source was distant, but he knew it. Knew it well.
In this book, Kaladin kneels in the light
Kaladin knelt, bathed in that warm light. Yes, warmth. Kaladin felt warm. Surely… if there truly was a deity… it watched him from within that light.
I wonder if there is a connection?
I don’t believe the ultimate victory will be Odium being destroyed, I think it will be Odium being incorporated into a new combined form with other Shards. His Passion is not bad in itself. It is bad when it becomes all consuming.
That warm light that Renarin is able to generate could be a trace of Adonalsium which is what I thought Dalinar sees/feels; Or it could be that what Dalinar felt was in fact from Renarin.He is the wildcard after all.
@@@@@ 163. goddessimho
Odium isn’t Passion, his Shard really IS “hatred”. Brandon chose to call him Odium because it sounds cooler. I expect that you’re right about reincorporating his Shard, but the Shard itself really is about as horrifically dangerous on its own as Ruin is. Rayse just suits it better than Ati suited Ruin.
The light thing is interesting, because it’s pretty clearly Spiritual Connection of some sort. Moash sees what he could have been and runs away screaming from the pain of not being that person. Kaladin experiences nothing but light and warmth. Isn’t that because Renarin already sees him as his best self?
(Oh and also Renarin’s less a wild card and more invisible to Odium because of the shardic equivalent of electrical interference. The Diagram can predict him just fine, after all.)
I’m sorry if this has been discussed before, but I’ve been rereading WoK at same time these excerpts are coming out. The examples of squire healing makes me wonder if members of Bridge Four were squire healing with stormlight while they were still running bridges. Even with Kaladin performing field medicine and giving everyone knobweeb sap, his members healed wounds that shouldn’t have been possible to heal. A big example is Leyten whose leg was trampled. Even if he survived the initial injuries, his leg should have been non functional without magic. But he was walking on his leg in the chasms when Bridge Four was first assigned to continuous chasm duty. There is a bunch of mention of everyone’s spears going dun which previously I assumed was just Kaladin using it unknowingly, but maybe they all were?
Well, Kaladin can be a flaming @@@@@$$hole at times… *giggle*
Also, I loved that the closest thing Roshar has to “earth” wine had quotes around it. “wine”. That just kills me.
Wow, this has been so much fun to read! There is some absolutely fantastic speculation going on here. Some of it comes so close as to be scary, some is way off (but still excellent theorizing), and some is going to be fulfilled just like you said but way differently than you think. :D Good stuff.
Eric, I especially appreciated the analysis of Kaladin’s “god surgeon complex” (sorry, it’s late and I’m too lazy to scroll back up and see exactly what you said). I had never thought of him in quite the way you described, but it’s really quite perfect. This is where our “extended book group” function here is so cool – as a group, we have all sorts of expertise that helps different people see things outside their own experience.
@several, in case you check back… Yes, as noted in the introduction, we know there are typos, grammar errors, and the occasional continuity error in the chapters as released. However, the gamma and final proofing (now completed and turned in) involved 60+ obsessive people scrutinizing every detail for a week, so virtually everything has been caught and corrected.
Oh, one more thing. We try to be extremely careful not to “know” anything beyond the chapter we’re reading along with. I’ve gone so far as to check back into the beta comments to make sure I really was thinking “that way” at the time I initially read the chapter. This week’s example is the debate over whether Moash was trying to turn Kaladin to Team Odium, or pushing him toward suicide. I was actually very surprised to see that come up as a debate at this point, because in the beta, every single one of us read it as pushing toward suicide. There was a single comment about Moash “recruiting” – and then the same person, a couple sentences later, saying “nope nope, it’s all about suicide.” (There was a lot more swearing involved, though.) So as I say, I was surprised that this chapter was read so differently by some. All of which is to say, don’t put too much reliance on what we say or don’t say! We will occasionally ask questions here that we asked in the beta at the time, or propose theories that make sense based on what we know so far. We’re not (generally) being mendacious about it, but I’ll admit to a certain amount of disingenuousness… If we think something is a fair question that ought to be asked, we’ll ask it even if we know the answer will come later. So, yeah. Don’t believe everything we imply. :p
I don’t remember it that way. The way I read it, it’s mostly that Cultivation, by the nature of the Shard, is better at futuresight than Odium or Honor. She’s probably right up there with Preservation. Also, Renarin’s own futuresight power comes from Cultivation. Maybe she’s less blinded by someone using her own Investiture than other Shards would be.
It will be interesting to see how good Sazed is at futuresight, once he’s used to being Harmony.
You also reminded me of something I meant to mention earlier: Moash taunts Kaladin with possible futures where everyone he loves dies while he’s helpless.
Then Renarin defeats Moash by showing him a possible world where he isn’t a traitorous villain. Hi, my favorite trope in the Stormlight Archive.
@166, Mike Loux:
Is Kaladin falling victim to another Mistborn-like problem, specifically, how pewterarms and bloodmakers can become insensitive to pain if they use their abilities too much? Thugs in particular can die of that one.
@52
Szeth said that the honor blade made his eyes green. And Moash is using an honor blade.
@@@@@ 168. Carl
I should have been clearer, I’m paraphrasing a Word of Brandon on the subject. The way that Renarin’s abilities work makes him near invisible to Odium’s own foresight powers. Glys’ corruption by Sja-anat means that technically his future-sight is from Odium, not Cultivation, particularly since cultivationspren are the Edgedancer spren and not the Truthwatcher spren.
I’ve never quite been sure about the mechanics of shardic futuresight, but I always thought it had to do with how in-tune with your Intent you were. Ati is a genuinely nice guy, so when he picks up Ruin he can’t see far into the future. Meanwhile Leras is very much onboard with Preserving things so he gets an extra edge when he starts arranging the future.
Tanavast is an excellent dude, but maybe falls short of being your classic Lawful Good Paladin. Thus Rayse, who has been driven by salt and spite from the moment of his conception, is much better at gaming the future. That’s why futuresight is associated with the voidbringers and is forbidden basically everywhere on Roshar.
I bet you’re right that Cultivation is probably really good at seeing the future, but is she so good that absolutely no one with access to her Investiture is willing to touch futuresight that we know? That’s my one hangup.
@captainclever, it isn’t only cultivationspren that are “of” Cultivation, any more than only Honorspren are “of” Honor. The other spren are the offspring of both Honor and Cultivation. I’m assuming (based on nothing but my own intuition) that Truthwatchers get any futuresight from Cultivation because she’s the one who’s good at it. In fact, I assumed that so automatically I never thought about it until reading your #170.
Glys is corrupted by Odium (via Sja-Anat) but that doesn’t seem to have given Renarin unique abilities, so much as modified normal Truthwatcher powers. We haven’t seen any of the regular Truthwatchers Navani mentions yet, of course, so it’s hard to judge. I think it would be fascinating if he also had Voidlight-based powers, a sort of Venli-from-the-the-other-side, that in the end Odium can’t take away from him.
Hey, maybe Renarin is the only Radiant who’s immune to the power-dampening fabrial, which is presumably the anti-magic field generator from Final Fantasy. (Hey, we know Shardblades were inspired by FF! Brandon has said so.)
The fandom has assumed that it’s Shardic Intent that determines how good a Shard’s futuresight is, so Preservation (which is all about the future) and Cultivation (ditto) would be good at it, where Honor (which is about the present) and Ruin (which is about preventing the future) would be worse. They all have access to the Spiritual Realm, there are just degrees.
Note that Mr. Everything, I mean Kaladin, also had futuresight, when he met the lighthouse guy in Shadesmar. He’s just a Vorin male anti-intellectual and hasn’t ever learned even the limited amount of Realmatics that Navani and her fellow scholars know, so he doesn’t quite get it. If Renarin heard that story, I suspect he’d explain it to Kal.
A very interesting chapter.
The sequence of events that happens to Kaladin strongly reminds me of the process of capturing a spren in a gem as described in the epigraphs. At first he is attracted by something he loves – alleged honor of the Heavenly Ones, a chance to protect civilians, then Leshwi and the teleporter made sure that by the time he got to Moash he ran out of stormlight, and then Moash almost “trapped” Kal in the void with his nihilism and intimate knowledge of all of his weaknesses. Which, BTW, Kaladin opening himself to Moash and Rock is one of the other several emotional scenes* that should have been shown on-screen back in WoR, instead of just being mentioned after the fact. Generally, this “friendship” never was believable to me, because conveyed in “tell, don’t show” manner and Moash was always such a cocky jerk.
*the others being, IMHO, various Kholins’ (other than Navani) reactions to the news of Jasnah’s “death”, Adolin’s reaction to his choice of saving his father and letting Shallan plunge to her death into the chasm/her return “from the dead”, and in OB Alethi in Urithiru’s reaction to Alethkar falling out of spanreed communication and being overrun by the monsters out of legend, Ehlokar’s or Adolin’s reaction to the situation in Kholinar, to which they both had a deep emotional attachment, proper reaction to the news of Ehlokar’s death by his family.
IMHO, Moash was clearly trying to persuade Kaladin to suicide, which gives us a clue of how Odium operates, since it would have been a huge psychological victory for him and a terrible blow to Dalinar’s coalition. The thing is that not only is Kaladin very publicly prominent, due to how the Windrunners are structured and function, but him killing himself would have also broken his First Oath, and killed Syl, who this time around would have become a proper deadeye. Had that happened, further Nahel bonding would have been stopped in it’s tracks, or nearly so, since it would have confirmed to the spren that humans can’t be trusted. This also convinced me that the whole situation had been carefully staged – the benefit to Odium is far too obvious for it to have been just an unlucky chance.
I loved Renarin’s great entrance and the manner in which he rescued Kaladin! I have been unsure about his presence on the airship – they seemed to be putting too many eggs in one basket, but of course he is the person best positioned to ensure that they are forewarned about the less apparent dangers and can counteract them. I don’t think that it would have been a good idea for Renarin to attack Moash, much as the latter’s death would have simplified matters. Moash is a naturally talented fighter, who, I am sure, had a year’s worth training in killing Radiants from the masters of the trade. A physical attack would have jarred him out of his fugue and even with the super-healing, Renarin may not have been able to defeat him. In any case, getting Kaladin some stormlight and getting him out was a priority. I only really hope that Roshone is too dead to be revived via Progression. And that Moash is to distraught to “surrender” to somebody else – though, I doubt that he’d risk truly losing Jezrien’s honorblade.
BTW, maybe this is what chased the Fused soul out of the thunderclast too – it couldn’t bear to see the alternative version of itself? Like Moash x 1000?
Frankly, I am with Kaladin in the earlier chapter that Roshone’s new-found “nobility” was him trying to worm his way back into Dalinar’s good graces, possibly mixed with some standard patriotism. I would have been totally OK with Moash killing him, if not for the effect it had on Kal. IMHO, cold-blooded murder of the 2 chained prisoners was far worse, particularly combined with the lie how it was a mercy because nobody was coming for them – when Roshone, in fact, did, and Moash was lying in wait for Kal, because he fully expected for him to show up, too.
Shallan should have a surgeon/physician inspect Ialai’s body to ensure the cause of death. I still think that it was suicide. I would hate it so much if Ishnah turns out to be the traitor – I’d really like for Shallan to have a dark-eyed friend/follower, who is female. I like CSI Shallan – deliciously weird, indeed! Though it was kinda dangerous to have Adolin taste the wine, when Ialai specifically warned that her beverages could be poisoned. Love Pattern, as always. Well, hopefully there is something interesting in the hidden notes – and that we’ll actually learn what they contain – unlike the bait and switch about whatever Jasnah learned in her travels back in WoR, but refused to share, grrr. I’d even settle for the redacted account that Navani referenced earlier.
So, I guess that Gaz is not hetherochromatic, after all? I expect that some would see his becoming a squire as too easy, since he didn’t admit his wrongdoings to the bridgemen or ask for their forgiveness. OTOH, he was the one who eagerly jumped at the chance to be a decent person, despite the danger, when Shallan offered it back in WoR. And he was also the one who told her that even if she couldn’t/wouldn’t obtain a pardon for them, he’d die thankful for this experience. So, some soul-searching was going on in the background and he was clearly pining for some kind of redemption. Which is enough for a bit character, IMHO.
Lisa @169:
Szeth said that summoning the honorblade or surge-binding made his eyes pale-blue. His natural eye color was dark green – which is possibly where the mix-up comes from.
Carl @171:
Great minds think alike! I, too was wondering about whether the fabrial would work on Renarin and Venli. Renarin not only has a hybrid spren, but also somehow keeps Glys within his body, which no other human Radiant does. Which makes me wonder of he has a gemheart or maybe if he swallowed a “housing” to keep Glys hidden, and it makes their bond closer and harder to disrupt. Venli, of course, keeps Timbre in her gemheart, which may or may not be enough to let her surge-bind despite the voidrial, though probably not summon her as a blade.
@137 and a few others
While the Alethi “caste system” absolutely needs to be reformed, I’m guessing it hasn’t changed much yet because they’re more distracted by the war. That’s really not the best time for a major societal overhaul, especially one that’s already been disrupted by losing all their parshman slaves. I’m actually super interested in how the Alethi developed the caste system to begin with, since being light-eyed isn’t nearly as important in much of the rest of the world. Could they have had Radiants still leading them longer than other nations, or a closer connection to them?
ladycallista@@@@@ 173. If the Alethi caste system is reformed, I do not think it will be until the gap between Book 5 and Book 6. IMO, the first book in the back 5 series will address the ramifications of the reformed caste system. As you noted, such a major societal overhaul is not ideal in an apocalyptic situation. I do not think the Desolation will end until the end of RoW.
I think the SoH spy is either Brightlady Kalami or Brightlady Teshav Khal. In the OB prologue, Eshonai sees Gavilar meeting with five people. Two of the men are Amaram and Taravangian. If I recall correctly, there were at least 2 women. I think one of the women was Aesudan. When we see her later in OB, she seems to have knowledge of what Gavilar was up to prior to his assassination. I think this is because she was in Gavilar’s confidence. Perhaps, Gavilar was the one who spearheaded the marriage between Elhokar and Aesudan. He may have done so because Aesudan’s interests aligned with Gavilar’s. We do not know if Elhokar and Aesudan’s marriage was initially a political marriage or a marriage of love. I have this feeling that the other woman was either Kalami or Teshav.
I hope in RoW we learn what happen to some of the minor characters we met in the first books, especially the individuals whom Adolin one Shards against in WoR and Adolin’s former girlfriends (especially Danlan)
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
So, I’m getting more wild theories. The way Kaladin was responding to Moash made think of him as being “unmade”. He was being broken down and torn apart. Perhaps that is what happened to the actual unmade. The ones who are intelligent weren’t completely broken and kept some sense of self while the others “ceased to exist” as Moash was pushing on Kaladin to do. Those devolved to be just avatars of a concept.
@173 ladycallista
The Apocalypse might be a bad time for reform, but then everything leading up to the Apocalypse seems to also have been a bad time for reform for those benefiting from the status quo. I actually think that the Apocalypse might be a necessary time to think about reform. Might as well make the world a place worth saving.
I’ve been reading the comments in these threads and I thought I would offer one more opinion, if I may. Please accept these thoughts for what they are.
The pre-release chapters are immensely enjoyable. To be able to read a sizeable chunk of the book prior to release is both a treat and a privilege. Thank you to Brandon, the publishers and the team for making it happen.
Word came through this week: final edits are made and the book is done!
The speculation contained within the comments in these discussions is absolutely fantastic. So much bubbling under the surface in just the last two chapters, and the implications for the entire Cosmere – wow. Its just under the surface and you can tell the book is opening so, so well.
I disagree with many of the theories posted, while find myself agreeing with just as many others. There is so much food for thought. Thank you to EVERYONE commenting here – to read along with you is like a “big, slow, online bookclub”. So much to think about.
Having said all of that, I do have a small (very small) issue I need to state here. I am not singling anyone out – and if you are reading this, please do not feel this is directed at anyone in particular – because it is not – but as a reader of the discussion here I need to say this: what is distinctly not enjoyable in these discussions, are comments that disagree with the author’s decisions – be they character actions or reactions, or story direction, or even simply who has the viewpoint in these chapters (versus who you might prefer to have more screen time in these early chapters). The author is fallible and makes mistakes (as we all do) – but this isn’t fan fiction – this is the actual book – the author’s work; Canon if you will; and its not (yet) ours. I promise that it will eventually be entirely yours, to hold in your mind and imagine in your way, once we have had the opportunity to read the whole thing. But while its in progress, please appreciate it and keep the discussion on what it is, rather than what you might hope/dream it to be. Wishing the published work to become something else will not make it so. The intention of putting these chapters up is to get everyone excited about the release! If we unfairly complain about the content not matching what we most desire, there is a chance the publisher may decide not to do similar releases in future. So lets focus on the awesome, for now. There will be plenty of time to dissect the complete and finished work later, while we wait for the next one.
Ladycallista @173:
The in-world WoR epigraphs in WoR mention that while Urithiru was the Radiant stronghold, many Radiants chose to settle in Alethela. And I assume that a lot more would have come there after the abandonment of the Tower and before the Recreance. Those may have later chosen to break their Oaths right there on the home turf, so that there would have been a lot of deadeye blades for people to pick up, too. I also think that the children of higher-Ideal Radiants, or maybe children conceived when their parents’ eye color was still affected by blade summoning or surge-binding, were born with light eyes*. So, that’s probably where the caste system comes from. I kinda wonder why Jah-Keved and Thaylenah has as many lighteyes as they do, though – intermarriage with the Alethi? And why the boatload of shards abandoned at the Feverstone Keep (as per Dalinar’s vision) didn’t result in a significant number of the blue-eyed Iri and Rirans. Iri do have light golden or yellow eyes, of course, but that’s due to their non-Ashyn off-world ancestry, not descent from the Radiants or shardbearers.
*There is this recent WoB that supports this, IMHO:
AndrewHB @174:
Yea, I do want various minor characters from WoK and WoR to reappear – it is a bit disconcerting how characters seem to vanish in SoA once their immediate function is done. Like, what happened to that cousin of Sadeas, or maybe Ialai, who used to scribe for Ehlokar back in WoK? Etc. As to the spy – aren’t Teshav and Kalami too much in the know to be them? And why would they, at this point, particularly Teshav, whose family has only prospered from service to Dalinar? Kalami is more likely, IMHO, as she may be bitter and religiously inclined after her husband’s death and doesn’t seem to have any other family… Still, I think it more likely that the spy is one of Adolin’s former girlfriends and/or possibly a Diagrammist.
Nightheron @176:
IMHO, immediate reform is critical to Alethkar’s ability to survive as a nation and to motivate humans and singers to ally with them and the Radiants. In fact, I have expected RoW to start with Jasnah dealing with the tumult and reprecussions of the abolition of slavery in the camps (seen from Shallan’s/Adolin’s PoVs) – which is absolutely crucial for any reasonable dialogue with the singers to be feasible and for providing the people in the occupied territories with a hopeful alternative. And also, Alethi-in-exile need to have a hitherto unmatched cohesion as a people to retain their technology and some of their civilization, which would be impossible if the rich and the powerful are allowed to prey on the destitute refugees, up to and including selling them into slavery. The caste restrictions – such as pay depending on nahn/dahn, and who can occupy positions of authority, needs to be significantly loosened as well. They are in too desperate a straits to afford to pass on competence. And besides, when anybody could theoretically become a Radiant, it is a really bad idea to be too oppressive to lower classes.
Oh, and something I forgot to mention in my previous posts – the camps and the Shattered Plains seem to have all been a part of a huge ancient metropolis, or, at least, several big cities grouped closely together. In WoR Adolin cut his way into a large building to circle around the stormform Listeners, and cellars, tunnels, etc. in the camps seem to be the relics of the same era. IIRC the area used to be the location of the Silver Kingdom of Natanatan.
@172, Isilel:
Hmm … can she ever summon Timbre as a Blade? If she did, surely the Voidspren in her gemheart would escape, or try to take over Venli? Can Venli learn to “hold it captive” without Timbre inside her?
@173, ladycallista:
Perhaps you’ve heard of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars? The French had a very strict (though less complicated) class system in the ancien regime. The Grand Armee rewarded competence over birth, and conquered every neighbor of France. All the old states of Europe and western Asia had to combine to defeat them, and even then it was temporary. In fact, states like England had to adopt a more meritocratic system [such as promoting Arthur Wellesley, a minor Anglo-Irish nobleman, (he served in the House of Commons] to Duke of Wellington because he was the most capable English general).
@178, Isilel:
Contrariwise, the Roman Republic (along with the Alexandrian Successors and the Roman Empire, to name two more) did in fact survive for centuries while conquering other nations, and all of them had the M.O. of selling defeated enemies into slavery en masse. The Roman Republic did this while a feared and hated foreign conqueror had a seemingly-unbeatable army rampaging around in Italy (Hannibal’s Carthaginians). The Romans actually became more meritocratic under the Emperors, at least one of whom seems to have been the son of a freedman.
@174: Andrew. I would love it if the narrative did better work out of keeping track of minor characters.
@177 Mark. Discussing the missing perspectives has been a part of these re-reads for years. We discussed it during the WoR re-read, we discussed it during the OB re-read, and we certainly are not done discussing it for RoW. Yes, I agree it might be premature to have those discussions for RoW, but RoW currently has a very tight focus on a narrative the readers have already expressed some level of tiredness for in past commentaries.
@179: Carl. The French Revolution was followed by The Terror, years through which all people feared for their lives, and they get decapitated for a yes or for a no. If the founding values of the Revolution of liberty, equity, and fraternity were worth fighting for, facts are they led to decades of bloodshed. They allowed the rise of a dictator in Napoleon who beneficiated of the strong patriotic feeling to garner large armies to invade his numbers up until he wasted it all in cold Russia. There was absolutely nothing great nor worth reproducing in poor soldiers crumbling down, dying of cold and hunger, or pushing themselves for one more step on frozen dead foot. War and Peace did good work in depicting this reality and one can also look at paintings from this era to get a feeling of what a field filled with dying corpses may have looked like.
The French Revolution was a horror that led to another horror, the Napoleonic Wars. Hence, just because a revolution is morally rightful does not mean its outcome will be morally rightful.
And yes, Napoleon was successful in large parts because his generals were talented out of having been promoted from merit as opposed to birth. Still, in the end, he still lost and caused the death of millions of people, not just soldiers, but also the civilians his soldiers stole, destroyed the crops from when they didn’t burn their towns.
So while it seems highly likely the Alethi system will get reformed, history has taught us those reforms usually don’t happen without… great bloodshed. Now, I suspect Sanderson will write a very quiet revolution where no one dies and everyone just goes with it, but history has shown us… it never happens this way. Ever.
@Gepeto
“The Terror” lastet from mid 1793 until mid 1794. Tens of thousands of people were killed during that year, but, unless you count all european history as “decades of bloodshed” (which might be a valid point) you are exaggerating here.
This also is not true. For example, the revolution in the DDR that lead to the reunification of Germany was peaceful.
I have always found this type of discussion rather irritating. The books contain the viewpoints that the author thought that they should contain to tell a consistent and satisfying story not to deliver a comprehensive account of fictional events from all possible perspectives. Not everyone has to like the choices an author makes, but endless complaining about this is much more tiresome than anything that is actually in the books.
I sometimes wonder about the viewpoints of bit characters in the narrative, especially when they are particularly funny or quirky or even simply that their position may add nuance. However I’m also reminded of his mentor. Mr. Jordan did expound on the viewpoints of minor characters. The result was a 14 book series with massive amounts of dead time. Well written dead time to be sure, and it’s still one of my favorite series of all time, but everytime I do a reread I skip Crossroads of Twilight completely. Judging by the interludes and the novellas I’m sure Brandon has at least 2 full length novels worth of character development for those who reside away from the main cast of SA. But then he gets book bloat and gets hammered by the critics accordingly. Would anyone want to read extended viewpoints from Jenet, horse trainer extraordinaire and one of Adolin’s many ex girlfriends? I’m sure she’s there for someone but not me, not if it forces him to give less screen time to Jasnah or something. I try to be careful about what I wish for and temper my expectations. Brandon usually doesn’t disappoint.
@evil Monkey
I think that Robert Jordan and George Martin have shown in detail how a book series can get out of control if too many viewpoint characters are included and/or too many charcter arcs are beeing followed in “real time”. As Sanderson has a very systematic and planned approach to writing it is very likely that he is aware of these problems and chose his viewpoints accordingly.
@Gepeto: I was saying that the Grand Armee was effective. Saying that the governments it worked for were not nice is rather beside my point. Note that you just read the greatest anti-Napoleonic propaganda piece ever written. Both (or all) sides of that war were pretty hideous by modern standards. Do you want to defend the Tsars, or the atrocious pre-Fascist government of the younger Pitt? The soon-to-be Kaisers of Prussia?
@184.Carl. I defend no one, the tsars the least of all. I am merely pointing out the fact the French Revolution led to decades of bloodshed first through the Terrors, then through the Napolean Wars it made possible.
I wouldn’t expect a revolution within a warlike society such as the Alethi to be peaceful.
@185 Gepeto
It is highly unlikely that a Europe without the French Revolution would have been a peaceful place. The innovations that lead to Napoleons initial success would have come one way or another and would have lead to similar wars. I would argue, that the french revolution, while not an immediate success, developed the ideas that allowed the massive improvements for the people that live in what is now called the “western world”.
@186. This is a chicken and egg thing… We don’t know if the ideals the French revolution put on the map wouldn’t have made their way through Europe without the bloodshed it ended up causing. The American Revolution, with its ideals of liberty, equity, and justice predates the French revolution. They might have spread through Europe even without the French Revolution.
I also have a hard time calling Europe of the 19th and the 20th century a peaceful place…
My point, however, was a revolution, even if rightful, does not always pan out on peace. It can cause large bloodshed and be “morally right in their revolution” has never stopped anyone from being guilty of massacring others. Hence, there are no sides of “right” or “wrong”: warfare usually only leads to more warfare. That’s basically what Moash ended up believing: no one is right, so he might as well pick the side he sees as the least evil.
I think this is a lesson Dalinar has learned with the War of Unification. If they all want a change of mentality, they are going to have to take the very long road towards it as opposed to enforce it brutally as it has been done in France or else, I fear a regime of terror is all they will end up with. And if they take the very long road, the peaceful road where changes are gradual and not forced, then we won’t be reading the end of it.
They might have. But they would never have done so without bloodshed. There is no realistic scenario where nobility and church just sit back and give their power to the people. At least not without massive external pressure which at that point just wasnt there.
And I dont see why anyone would call it that. But, after the second world war things have changed. There have been no wars in central / western europe for 75 years now. I dont think this has ever happend before.
I think that there are examples that show otherwise. And even if a revolution does lead to bloodshed it is not necessarily worse than keeping the system that was overthrown in place.
@188. Yes. There is. It happened elsewhere, but it takes far more time and it wouldn’t have been solved as quickly. It does take very strong external pressure, but it has been done in modern days, it could happen again, but to reach the moment where it can happen, you need to go through more than one generation.
I agree things got peaceful after the second world war, but we are talking modern times… I do not think it is fair to compare the late 20th century decades with the early 19th century ones. The time period I was referring to, the one directly following the French Revolution were rather bloody and history cannot tell us what would have happened without the bloody revolution. We do not know if the price in man lives, for the French Revolution, was actually worth it. We will never know. I could live with the Revolution and the Terrors, but the Napolean Wars… that was… not required. Too many people died in those and they die in a horrible manner.
I do not disagree with your last example, but I do not agree with the specific case of France falling into this category. I personally wouldn’t expect any revolution is a system so partitioned in a world enclined to warfare to go down peacefully (we could say Alethkar probably is the equivalent of 18th century France). Peaceful revolutions are the apanage of modern times, but in those old days, everything was an excuse for war. I wouldn’t expect Alethar to shed down the lighteyes distinction, to start treating all people equal, to remove the authority from the Vorin Church without a strong backlash and potentially a civil war.
This is why I think the changes we will see will be… limited and slow-going since I doubt a civil war is what Sanderson plans to write. My point is thus I believe only a bloody revolution will allow Alethkar to drastically change from what it has been. Since that’s unlikely, then changes will be small, IMHO.
“L: Well, chalk this down to another disabled character being magically healed (a trope in Stormlight that I am not terribly fond of, due to conversations about this subject with folx in the disabled community).”
I’m sorry but I have to take Lyndsey and some of the commenters to task on this take. Yes, there is dignity in disability and as someone with a disability I think it’s important to recognize our struggle and validate our experience and not dismiss it with quick fix solutions even in fiction.
That said there are a few things to consider: 1) Gaz wasn’t born blind in 1 eye it was from an injury. His experience isn’t as a person born blind or with diminished sight all his life. Having it fixed is a blessing for him because it wasn’t part of his identity or at all something he got value out of (as some blind people/deaf people find a lot of value in their experience whether or not they wish they could experience sight/hearing). As such, it only brought Gaz pain and misery and was something he very much wished to have fixed. I wish I could make my narcolepsy and hate it. It has brought me nothing but misery in my life. My brain has a deficiency and it’s something that only makes my life harder, like Renarin’s epilepsy its not some super valuable thing i want to hold onto. If I could fix it with stormlight, I’d take it in a second and I ask commenters to value that experience as much as they so the dignity of my status as a disabled person.
2) A big reason why dignity for people’s conditions and pushing against minimizing the impact is a big deal is in the real world WE CAN’T make it go away with stormlight. We have to live with it and deal with episodic conditions without the ability to full resolve the disability. On Roshar that’s not the case. They can fix these issues and as such it creates a very different relationship with disability than that which exists in the real world. Gaz could not regrow an eye in the real world, Renarin’s epilepsy wouldn’t be healable in the real world. On Roshar those things can be healed and it’s a very positive thing to live through these characters getting to resolve these issues.
@Baurus: well said.
By the way, it’s pretty questionable whether Renarin ever had epilepsy. Notice that even before he went Radiant, he never had a single seizure in Way of Kings or Words of Radiance. Brandon is carefully restricting his appearances because he doesn’t become a main character until the “back five” books, but at this point we really don’t know if he really had a CNS disorder, or it was a side effect of being a weird corrupted Radiant. Also notice that we have no idea whether he swore any Oaths, or what they were.
Not sure if anyone else caught it, but there’s a typo in the third paragraph. Is it already printed?
I read many comments , looking for hints about cosmere stuff I have difficult to track and was quite disappointed. So many critics . Well, anyone can think what they wants. But I’ll add my voice here.
1) this chapter is beautiful
2) row so far is beautiful
3) I love kaladin’s character
4) Sanderson is a genius and I love his work.
and i do not seek confrontation about what I wrote, but I wanted it written there.
please Sanderson, continue your amazing work.
“At what point is someone beyond redemption? If Moash himself were to eventually realize that what he has done was wrong, and attempt to atone, would he be beyond redemption?”
IMO, the answer to your second question is no, he would not be beyond redemption. I believe that redemption is always possible if you seek it, that the point where someone passes beyond redemption is the point when they lose even the desire to be redeemed.